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Gsil84
Is this wrong?? I have had alot of people ask me to send payment as a gift.. I have no problem doing it. But Some people are getting a hard time for doing it.
But I know I spend money on Shipping and packing the cards. And always give a better deal when not using Paypal.. So Im trying to save people money by taking gift payments. Including myself..If I ever do.

To me Paypal offers me no protection. I have had several deals where Paypal was wrong and still went with the wrong end of the deal..

I have money in my Paypal account and they pay me no interest. So what service are they providing me?? That I'm not paying for??

Just like to know that other people think.. Thanks..
bob_TCC
Brian,

I'll simply copy and paste the response that I just posted in a transaction...

If a seller is going to use a payment service such as PayPal to make it easy to collect payments, then the seller needs to be willing to accept the fees that are associated with using that service. If the seller isn't willing to accept those fees, then they should find another way of collecting payments. Honestly, we're simply not going to condone the use of personal payments for transactions that are clearly outside the scope of the acceptable use cases listed at this location on PayPal's web site.

-Bob
coltsfan23
I find Paypal quite useful and the gift option is cool in that when receiving payments, it doesn't take any fees away from you.

Your post doesn't make any sense to me. Half of it is incoherent and the other half, I just simply disagree with. To each his own, I guess.

Oh, and I also use paypal shipping, which is very helpful, but with gifts, you have to type in the address and print the label. You can't just go under "print label" next to the payment when receiving payment as a gift.
bob_TCC
QUOTE(coltsfan23 @ Sep 7 2009, 11:29 PM)
I find Paypal quite useful and the gift option is cool in that when receiving payments, it doesn't take any fees away from you.
*



If that method is used for accepting payments for purchases (as defined by PayPal), please explain how that is not being deceptive in order to use a service without paying for that service. unsure.gif

QUOTE(coltsfan23 @ Sep 7 2009, 11:29 PM)
Oh, and I also use paypal shipping, which is very helpful, but with gifts, you have to type in the address and print the label. You can't just go under "print label" next to the payment when receiving payment as a gift.
*



There's a logical reason why the shipping tools work that way... Why are you shipping packages related to gifts or personal payments? Reference my comments from above. wink.gif

-Bob
Gsil84
QUOTE(coltsfan23 @ Sep 7 2009, 10:29 PM)
I find Paypal quite useful and the gift option is cool in that when receiving payments, it doesn't take any fees away from you.

Your post doesn't make any sense to me. Half of it is incoherent and the other half, I just simply disagree with. To each his own, I guess.

Oh, and I also use paypal shipping, which is very helpful, but with gifts, you have to type in the address and print the label. You can't just go under "print label" next to the payment when receiving payment as a gift.
*


I dont use Paypal shipping becuase mine has not worked for about 6 months. I have called them a few times and they have never got it to work..

Bob Im just asking.. To me Paypal is like my bank.. I have money in it and they pay me no intrest.. But still use my money just like a bank.. So that is my fees.

I was also trying to find out what people think..
coltsfan23
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 7 2009, 09:34 PM)
If that method is used for accepting payments for purchases (as defined by PayPal), please explain how that is not being deceptive in order to use a service without paying for that service.   unsure.gif

There's a logical reason why the shipping tools work that way...  Why are you shipping packages related to gift or personal payments?  Reference my comments from above.   wink.gif

-Bob
*



I'm not saying it's not deceptive per se. I've never sent a payment to someone else via gift if it wasn't intended for that purpose. However, I have no problem receiving it as a gift if the buyer is willing to as I save on fees that way.

And I know there's a logical reason for that, Bob. There's also a reason why there's little to no protection when money is sent as a gift. I'm not sure as to why you feel as if I'm ignorant on these matters. I just felt the need to add that little tidbit as it pertained to the thread. No need to talk down...
Gsil84
Sorry I think I got something started..
bob_TCC
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 7 2009, 11:35 PM)
Bob Im just asking.. To me Paypal is like my bank.. I have money in it and they pay me no intrest.. But still use my money just like a bank.. So that is my fees.
*



Brian,

Many banks have fees associated with their accounts - e.g., ATM fees and more. Just like PayPal, you know those fees when you decide to use their services. If you don't want to pay the fees, find another service provider that doesn't have the fees.

-Bob
Gsil84
Im sorry but to me Paypal doesnt offer any protection anyways. I have seen alot of times where one person is wrong and Paypal still sides with that person.
Gsil84
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 7 2009, 10:38 PM)
Brian,

Many banks have fees associated with their accounts - e.g., ATM fees and more.  Just like PayPal, you know those fees when you decide to use their services.  If you don't want to pay the fees, find another service provider that doesn't have the fees.

-Bob
*


I guess thats why I bank at my bank. Everything is free.. I'm not trying to be rude. But Im asking..
bob_TCC
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 7 2009, 11:40 PM)
Im sorry but to me Paypal doesnt offer any protection anyways. I have seen alot of times where one person is wrong and Paypal still sides with that person.
*



Brian,

This isn't just about their conflict resolution services. That's an important component of this discussion as well though, but we can discuss that in more detail later.

You are using a service that allows you to transfer money between accounts electronically. That service allows you to exchange funds in seconds from the comfort of your home. That service allows you to avoid paying the fees associated with purchasing a money order. That service allows you to avoid paying the postage necessary to mail cash, a money order or a check. That service helps you avoid the risk involved with mailing such payment types. PayPal believes that the service has some value. Therefore, PayPal charges fees for that service.

-Bob
bob_TCC
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 7 2009, 11:43 PM)
I guess thats why I bank at my bank. Everything is free.. I'm not trying to be rude. But Im asking..
*



Understood, Brian.

That same freedom exists when deciding what payment methods to accept for online transactions though. So, I'm simply suggesting that members either need to pay the fees associated with the service or find another way to accept methods. Using deception to avoid the fees while still using the service doesn't seem like an acceptable option.

-Bob
Gsil84
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 7 2009, 10:47 PM)
Brian,

This isn't just about their conflict resolution services.  That's an important component of this discussion as well though, but we can discuss that in more detail later.

You are using a service that allows you to transfer money between accounts electronically.  That service allows you to exchange funds in seconds from the comfort of your home.  That service allows you to avoid paying the fees associated with purchasing a money order.  That service allows you to avoid paying the postage necessary to mail cash, a money order or a check.  That service helps you avoid the risk involved with mailing such payment types.  PayPal believes that the service has some value.  Therefore, PayPal charges fees for that service.

-Bob
*


I'm just asking.. I dont pay for Money Orders at my bank.. And can also send money via my bank free.. I wanted to know what people thought about it.. I like talking about these kind of things..
Gsil84
I guess when your taking payments you cant diecide how they send the money.. Right??
bob_TCC
QUOTE(coltsfan23 @ Sep 7 2009, 11:37 PM)
However, I have no problem receiving it as a gift if the buyer is willing to as I save on fees that way.
*



Have you ever requested that someone send a personal payment for a purchase?

QUOTE(coltsfan23 @ Sep 7 2009, 11:37 PM)
I'm not sure as to why you feel as if I'm ignorant on these matters. I just felt the need to add that little tidbit as it pertained to the thread. No need to talk down...
*



Ankesh,

I didn't suggest that you were ignorant and I didn't talk down to you. Honestly, you need to lose the tendency to always assume that others are looking to "start something" with you. wink.gif

-Bob
bob_TCC
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 7 2009, 11:54 PM)
I guess when your taking payments you cant diecide how they send the money.. Right??
*



Brian,

I'd agree with that statement. However, I'd certainly suggest that most buyers would choose the PayPal payment options that are most relevant to the reason they are sending money. From what I've been seeing recently, buyers are generally only sending personal payments when the sellers are specifically requesting that they do so.

Just to be clear... If anyone asks me to send a payment for a purchase using the personal payment option, I will let them know that I am not willing to send payment in that way. They can either accept the proper type of payment or I will spend my money elsewhere.

-Bob
wildboyz_211
Doesnt paypal offer interest on the balance? I know mine does (Premier account)...and as for your issue as to paypal siding with wrong people, if you do things PAYPAL'S ways, then you will always win (e.g. tracking numbers w/ insurance - and pictures of the item for example)...
Gsil84
QUOTE(wildboyz_211 @ Sep 7 2009, 11:44 PM)
Doesnt paypal offer interest on the balance? I know mine does (Premier account)...and as for your issue as to paypal siding with wrong people, if you do things PAYPAL'S ways, then you will always win (e.g. tracking numbers w/ insurance - and pictures of the item for example)...
*


Sure do things there way. But if someone says they didnt get the card or If I say the card is damaged and prove it. They always seem to go for the other guy.. Maybe its just me??

This is why I like to talk about things.. I learn and so do others.. Not trying to be rude. Just asking. Maybe I was wrong to do that?
bob_TCC
Brian,

I don't believe anyone has suggested that you're being rude or were wrong for posting this topic. To the contrary, I think this is a topic that needs to be discussed.

-Bob
Gsil84
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 8 2009, 12:20 AM)
Brian,

I don't believe anyone has suggested that you're being rude or were wrong for posting this topic.  To the contrary, I think this is a topic that needs to be discussed.

-Bob
*


I think its good to talk about these things also.. One of the things not brought up in this is that you cant protest a gift. So if you send someone a gift payment and they dont send your out the money with no protection..
bob_TCC
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 8 2009, 01:28 AM)
One of the things not brought up in this is that you cant protest a gift. So if you send someone a gift payment and they dont send your out the money with no protection..
*



Brian,

That's definitely another important aspect of this discussion. As a buyer, you are directly hurting yourself by removing your ability to dispute a transaction that doesn't proceed as desired. In other words, PayPal isn't going to offer any type of conflict resolution services for gifts and/or other types of personal payments.

-Bob
urbanmonk
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 7 2009, 10:28 PM)
I think its good to talk about these things also.. One of the things not brought up in this is that you cant protest a gift. So if you send someone a gift payment and they dont send your out the money with no protection..
*



I think the issue is more that transactions being set up that way specifing that, as in the seller requesting payment that way. Which if someone says "hey they ripped me off" and we say "file a Paypal claim is your best recourse" and they say "but I sent it as a gift" then response probably be "well you just gave them a gift I guess" wink.gif.

QUOTE
One of the things not brought up in this is that you cant protest a gift.


I believe you can refuse any payment with Paypal, granted not done very much but if someone sent you money accidently by typing in wrong addy would be a case. And I imagine that would be case with any type of payment.

People have their own set of ethics/morals, so folks can do what they choose if that's what they want to do and feel it is worth the risk/consequences. But then they are on their own if something happens or can only blame themselves from their own decisions in life (applies to many things in life, a whole multitude of decisions one makes in life on a regular basis).

Discussions are good, as long as they stay a discussion and not a mud slinging festival wink.gif as that is how we learn wink.gif
wildboyz_211
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 8 2009, 01:12 AM)
Sure do things there way. But if someone says they didnt get the card or If I say the card is damaged and prove it. They always seem to go for the other guy.. Maybe its just me??

This is why I like to talk about things.. I learn and so do others.. Not trying to be rude. Just asking. Maybe I was wrong to do that?
*



I worked for a powerseller on ebay, and he knows all the rules and guidelines for paypal. And when we shipped something, we shipped tracking number and insurance required - everytime. And on top of that, when we took pictures, we took multiple shots - now that wouldnt be necessary with cards, but a good front back scan would suffice. So that way if a paypal dispute did come up you would have proof of what the card looked like before you handed it to the postal service. And because you have insurance, if anything happened to it afterward, the postal service would pay for it.
bigalexx
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 7 2009, 08:35 PM)
Bob Im just asking.. To me Paypal is like my bank.. I have money in it and they pay me no intrest.. But still use my money just like a bank.. So that is my fees.

I was also trying to find out what people think..
*


If you can't deal with the fees then don't use paypal. Either don't use it, or comply with their "rules." Using paypal and then picking and choosing which "rules" you can work around is acting like a 3rd grader wink.gif. You are intentionally breaking their TOS.

EDIT: Re-reading this comes across like I'm speaking specifically to you, I'm not talking specifically to you Gsil, this is directed to everyone who ask for payment as a "gift"
northicehero99
I think the biggest "keys" to this is that:

A. Your transaction with paypal is not really a "gift" as you are providing a service or product for someone else's payment.

B. BUYER BEWARE as you loose all right to get those funds back when you pay as a "gift" even if you are buying a service, you have given a "GIFT".

For those reasons alone members should not be "buying" services/products using the "gift" feature.
metsfan2427
Paypal had to know this was going to happen.
People were going to abuse it. To avoid fees. i know most people are forums only take paypal payments as gifts now
Gsil84
QUOTE(metsfan2427 @ Sep 8 2009, 06:41 AM)
Paypal had to know this was going to happen.
People were going to abuse it. To avoid fees. i know most people are forums only take paypal payments as gifts now
*



I'm sure they did.. But they can take the good with the bad. No fees, means more people will take Paypal for payment. And that means more people going to there website. More people on the site, means they can charge more for advertising on the site.

Why I like gift payments!!
I have to use the gift payment every time I want to ship something.. So I'm glad they have it.. I have two accounts, one where the shipping has not worked for 6 months or more. So I have to send myself money to a different account and print my postage from there..

So I'm glad that I can send it as a gift!!

I think this kind of goes along the line of fake cards.. People trying to make or scam money is where it will go in the long run.. They will ask for a gift. Then not send..

bob_TCC
QUOTE(metsfan2427 @ Sep 8 2009, 07:41 AM)
Paypal had to know this was going to happen.
People were going to abuse it. To avoid fees. i know most people are forums only take paypal payments as gifts now
*



If this is an accurate statement, then what does this say about collectors? unsure.gif

-Bob
metsfan2427
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 8 2009, 09:33 AM)
I think this kind of goes along the line of fake cards.. People trying to make or scam money is where it will go in the long run.. They will ask for a gift. Then not send..
*


i see that coming a huge issue down the road. once more people find out about gifts. this is pretty much a dream for scammers.
metsfan2427
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 8 2009, 09:48 AM)
If this is an accurate statement, then what does this say about collectors?  unsure.gif

-Bob
*


Bob,
i am not saying everyone is doing it. but it seems to become a big trend.
bob_TCC
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 8 2009, 09:33 AM)
I think this kind of goes along the line of fake cards.. People trying to make or scam money is where it will go in the long run.. They will ask for a gift. Then not send..
*



Actually, I would argue that it's already at the point of trying "to make or scam money" - just at PayPal's expense instead of the expense of other collectors. In my mind, it's one and the same. wink.gif

With that said, you're correct in that this practice is just going to make online collector-to-collector transactions even more difficult because collectors are freely giving up some of the protections they have in exchange for a few coins here and there.

-Bob
Gsil84
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 8 2009, 08:48 AM)
If this is an accurate statement, then what does this say about collectors?  unsure.gif

-Bob
*


I dont think it says anything about collectors. It's people in general.. They are hurt for cash or sick of big company's?? Or just don't want to pay?? Like with file sharing.. Most people don't care if some Huge company is losing money.. Just like most huge company's don't care about the consumer..
bob_TCC
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 8 2009, 09:52 AM)
I dont think it says anything about collectors. It's people in general.. They are hurt for cash or sick of big company's?? Or just don't want to pay?? Like with file sharing.. Most people don't care if some Huge company is losing money.. Just like most huge company's don't care about the consumer..
*



Again...

If people don't want to pay for a service that has associated fees, then don't use the service.

Furthermore, why are collectors buying pieces of cardboard if they are hurting for money so much that they have to figure out how to use deception to avoid PayPal fees?

-Bob


metsfan2427
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 8 2009, 09:52 AM)
I dont think it says anything about collectors. It's people in general.. They are hurt for cash or sick of big company's?? Or just don't want to pay?? Like with file sharing.. Most people don't care if some Huge company is losing money.. Just like most huge company's don't care about the consumer..
*


very true
The companys want to make a profit and keep customers besides that they really don't care.
bob_TCC
QUOTE(metsfan2427 @ Sep 8 2009, 09:59 AM)
very true
The companys want to make a profit and keep customers besides that they really don't care.
*



So, let me get this right... Companies should just provide their products and services for free, right?

-Bob
Gsil84
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 8 2009, 08:59 AM)
Again...

If people don't want to pay for a service that has associated fees, then don't use the service.

Furthermore, why are collectors buying pieces of cardboard if they are hurting for money so much that they have to figure out how to use deception to avoid PayPal fees?

-Bob
*


The same reason people with no money still smoke and drink.. LOL
Gsil84
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 8 2009, 09:01 AM)
So, let me get this right...  Companies should just provide their products and services for free, right? 

-Bob
*


I think what he is saying is that they only care about the money. You pay for something. They get your money, they don't care anymore.. They already have your money. They know you will come back?? Or don't care because your just one person.
bob_TCC
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 8 2009, 10:04 AM)
I think what he is saying is that they only care about the money. You pay for something. They get your money, they don't care anymore.. They already have your money. They know you will come back?? Or don't care because your just one person.
*



Yes, I've heard this argument before in relation to various aspects of life. It's all part of the justification process.

-Bob
metsfan2427
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 8 2009, 10:04 AM)
I think what he is saying is that they only care about the money. You pay for something. They get your money, they don't care anymore.. They already have your money. They know you will come back?? Or don't care because your just one person.
*


correct. money is usually the number 1 concern of the company.
Gsil84
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 8 2009, 08:59 AM)
Again...

If people don't want to pay for a service that has associated fees, then don't use the service.

Furthermore, why are collectors buying pieces of cardboard if they are hurting for money so much that they have to figure out how to use deception to avoid PayPal fees?

-Bob
*


Again....

I'm just asking... One other thing we have not talked about is what will TCC do if things go wrong with gift payments used on transactions??

Will both members be in trouble? One for not sending and the other for using Paypal in the wrong way??

Should that be a rule on TCC??

Anyone using Paypal or any service to pay for transactions in the wrong way will be open to punishment under TCC's guidelines...

We all know this is going to be an issue.. Lets work it out before it becomes to big..
bob_TCC
QUOTE(metsfan2427 @ Sep 8 2009, 10:08 AM)
correct. money is usually the number 1 concern of the company.
*



Would you want profitability to be a minimal concern for a company? If it's the company that pays your salary, would you still hope that they aren't worried about collecting the fees associated with their products and/or services?

-Bob
metsfan2427
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 8 2009, 10:11 AM)
Again....

I'm just asking...  One other thing we have not talked about is what will TCC do if things go wrong with gift payments used on transactions??

Will both members be in trouble? One for not sending and the other for using Paypal in the wrong way??

Should that be a rule on TCC??

Anyone using Paypal or any service to pay for transactions in the wrong way will be open to punishment under TCC's guidelines...

We all know this is going to be an issue.. Lets work it out before it becomes to big..
*


i don't think a rule with stop people from doing it.
maybe a pinned topic warning people. that there is no protection with this payment
metsfan2427
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 8 2009, 10:13 AM)
Would you want profitability to be a minimal concern for a company?  If it's the company that pays your salary, would you still hope that they aren't worried about collecting the fees associated with their products and/or services?

-Bob
*


Bob,
i don't think you get what i am saying. I am not saying everything should be free.
I don't completely agree with the paypal fees. But you pay for what you get.
Currently paypal is the easiest way and safest to pay for online transactions.
urbanmonk
Paypal has that option so you can send friends/family money w/o being charged for gift. If it is continually abused, they will figuire out that John Doe is getting way too many gifts every month, and they will just remove that option so that everyone that recieves money is now charged. So is that fair to folks wanting to use it that way?

QUOTE
They get your money, they don't care anymore.. They already have your money.


Companies like that don't stay in business very long. I don't know about the rest of you but if I have enough bad experiences I will no longer spend my money on a company when there is plenty of other companies providing that service. Same as when you have a good experience you will tell a handful of people, when you have a bad experience you will tell those same people and a bunch of other people (many times what you would tell if a good experience), as it is human nature.

QUOTE
One other thing we have not talked about is what will TCC do if things go wrong with gift payments used on transactions??


I don't make the rules. But to me it is like safety guards on machines at work, you can only protect people from doing something stupid to a certain extent (granted with those kind of safetys OSHA makes you go overboard). But to me if folks don't want to follow things that are their to help them, then they are on their own as they are not helping us help them at all (making it much more difficult) so my time will be spent elsewhere it is needed. If folks don't care about the risk they added, then I guess they don't mine the extra consequences that go with it either and have no place to complain.
dodgerblue38501
QUOTE(urbanmonk @ Sep 8 2009, 08:38 AM)

Paypal has that option so you can send friends/family money w/o being charged for gift.  If it is continually abused, they will figuire out that John Doe is getting way too many gifts every month, and they will just remove that option so that everyone that recieves money is now charged.  So is that fair to folks wanting to use it that way?

*



Dwight is exactly right! So once again those trying to get something for nothing will cost the rest of us money that are trying to do what is right. That is America folks!
bob_TCC
QUOTE(metsfan2427 @ Sep 8 2009, 10:18 AM)
i don't think you get what i am saying. I am not saying everything should be free.
I don't completely agree with the paypal fees. But you pay for what you get.
Currently paypal is the easiest way and safest to pay for online transactions.
*



James,

Thanks for making your view on the subject clear. wink.gif

-Bob
bob_TCC
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 8 2009, 10:11 AM)
I'm just asking...  One other thing we have not talked about is what will TCC do if things go wrong with gift payments used on transactions??

Will both members be in trouble? One for not sending and the other for using Paypal in the wrong way??

Should that be a rule on TCC??

Anyone using Paypal or any service to pay for transactions in the wrong way will be open to punishment under TCC's guidelines...

We all know this is going to be an issue.. Lets work it out before it becomes to big..
*



As mentioned earlier, we're simply not going to condone the use of personal payments for transactions that are clearly outside the scope of the acceptable use cases listed at this location on PayPal's web site.

So, I've already begun to inform sellers that they need to refrain from requesting personal payments for purchases. If a member continues that practice despite being asked to stop, it will be addressed. wink.gif

-Bob
Gsil84
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 8 2009, 10:51 AM)
As mentioned earlier, we're simply not going to condone the use of personal payments for transactions that are clearly outside the scope of the acceptable use cases listed at this location on PayPal's web site.

So, I've already begun to inform sellers that they need to refrain from requesting personal payments for purchases.  If a member continues that practice despite being asked to stop, it will be addressed.  wink.gif

-Bob
*


Thats good to know.. That way if someone asks for a gift payment for a transaction know I have the backing of TCC when I say I will not send the payment that way.. Not that i need it but it's still good to know that you guys are doing whats best for the members on the site..

I think this has been a very good thread..
northicehero99
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 8 2009, 11:29 AM)
Thats good to know.. That way if someone asks for a gift payment for a transaction know I have the backing of TCC when I say I will not send the payment that way.. Not that i need it but it's still good to know that you guys are doing whats best for the members on the site..

I think this has been a very good thread..
*


If you should see it please report it to a Team Member. Thanks.
DrewDude
There is a simple solution to the PayPal fee problem that doesn't break their terms of service. As long as your not a big time card dealer (under $500 per month), just make a personal account when making your PayPal account. There are no fees on any transaction, and you are still allowed to take 5 credit card payments per month.
Even if you expand past getting paid $500 a month on PayPal, you can always move your account up to Premier free, fast, and easy. Basically, if you are planning on nickel and diming PayPal on their fees, you probably aren't doing enough business to warrant anything more than a Personal account anyway, so you should just sign up for Personal and get no fees the fair and easier way.
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