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benshobbies
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 7 2009, 10:47 PM)
Brian,

This isn't just about their conflict resolution services.  That's an important component of this discussion as well though, but we can discuss that in more detail later.

You are using a service that allows you to transfer money between accounts electronically.  That service allows you to exchange funds in seconds from the comfort of your home.  That service allows you to avoid paying the fees associated with purchasing a money order.  That service allows you to avoid paying the postage necessary to mail cash, a money order or a check.  That service helps you avoid the risk involved with mailing such payment types.  PayPal believes that the service has some value.  Therefore, PayPal charges fees for that service.

-Bob
*



And I, as a loyal Paypal customer am willing to take them. Since when does any other service allow you to take money from someone's Canadian bank account, and transfer it to an American bank account? Or much more so, than allowing me to pay $4.00 for a computer part that someone has in Hong Kong, without me having to buy Chinese money?!
northicehero99
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 8 2009, 10:51 AM)
As mentioned earlier, we're simply not going to condone the use of personal payments for transactions that are clearly outside the scope of the acceptable use cases listed at this location on PayPal's web site.

So, I've already begun to inform sellers that they need to refrain from requesting personal payments for purchases.  If a member continues that practice despite being asked to stop, it will be addressed.  wink.gif

-Bob
*


Just wanted to make this topic visible for any new members not familiar with the "gift" function of paypal, and TCC's opinion on the use of that function.
bluechip
QUOTE(bob_TCC @ Sep 7 2009, 11:34 PM)
If that method is used for accepting payments for purchases (as defined by PayPal), please explain how that is not being deceptive in order to use a service without paying for that service.  unsure.gif
There's a logical reason why the shipping tools work that way...  Why are you shipping packages related to gifts or personal payments?  Reference my comments from above.  wink.gif

-Bob
*




I agree with your statements, but it can be viewed as an exchange of gifts by the 2 parties.
edgerrin32
i see tons of people bashing people about pack search, why not bash people for stealing, or lying? isn't that what you are doing when you pack search?? we all hate the fees, i think eBay/and paypal fees are a tad high, i sold around 140 worth of coins on ebay, and the paypal/eBay fees together were around 20 bucks, i think that's a lot for 140 bucks, but i paid it.

also i believe if you have money on your paypal acct and you send it as a payment, i think there is no fees. im not 100% sure on this though, so don't take my word for it. maybe if we could contact paypal and see if they would work with us on lower fees or since we do bring them a lot of business. most likely they wont but its worth a shot.

so man up, pay the fees, stop lying, cheating, stealing, and pack searching laugh.gif laugh.gif
Ilovetheheat
Here is my two cents....

I would never send payment as a gift if the deal was over $15 or if I didnt know or have a relationship with the seller....

With that said I have and will continue to send payments as gifts in the future if A. I know the seller and have dealt with him previously or B. the amount is less than $15.

I sell just as much as I buy/trade here and elsewhere... At the end of the month when you add up all the fees you incur on ebay/paypal etc it does take a chunk of your profit. I have no problem spending a few extra cents to help a seller out with fees.

I did not always have this outlook on the matter..... After receiving around 10 payments from various sites(All under$10) as gifts(their choice) it made me smile and think to myself..... Heck, a few more cents wont hurt me.



Alot of you guys make some valid points though... I would never request a payment be sent as a gift. That is your choice. Also, Id never send payment as a gift for anything high end or when buying in bulk. There is no protection for either of the parties involved......

Take Care.
-Jeremy
edgerrin32
QUOTE(Ilovetheheat @ Oct 1 2009, 12:36 PM)
Here is my two cents....

I would never send payment as a gift if the deal was over $15 or if I didnt know or have a relationship with the seller....

With that said I have and will continue to send payments as gifts in the future if A. I know the seller and have dealt with him previously or B. the amount is less than $15.

I sell just as much as I buy/trade here and elsewhere... At the end of the month when you add up all the fees you incur on ebay/paypal etc it does take a chunk of your profit. I have no problem spending a few extra cents to help a seller out with fees.

I did not always have this outlook on the matter..... After receiving around 10 payments from various sites(All under$10) as gifts(their choice) it made me smile and think to myself..... Heck, a few more cents wont hurt me.
Alot of you guys make some valid points though... I would never request a payment be sent as a gift. That is your choice. Also, Id never send payment as a gift for anything high end or when buying in bulk. There is no protection for either of the parties involved......

Take Care.
-Jeremy
*




so its ok to steal a candy bar because its only $1. but not ok to steal a car, because its $25,000. stealing is stealing no matter how big or small it is. blink.gif blink.gif blink.gif

or its ok to steal from someone who has a lot of money, but its not cool to steal from someone who is poor.

just makes no since to me. unsure.gif
degibson84
QUOTE(Gsil84 @ Sep 7 2009, 11:35 PM)
I dont use Paypal shipping becuase mine has not worked for about 6 months. I have called them a few times and they have never got it to work..

Bob Im just asking.. To me Paypal is like my bank.. I have money in it and they pay me no intrest.. But still use my money just like a bank.. So that is my fees.

I was also trying to find out what people think..
*


paypal does have a money market fund that earns you a very small percent of interest. im not sure the deatails but i have thought about it as i keep my card spending money there so i dont have to use the bank account.
Ilovetheheat
QUOTE(edgerrin32 @ Oct 1 2009, 01:40 PM)
so its ok to steal a candy bar because its only $1. but not ok to steal a car, because its $25,000. stealing is stealing no matter how big or small it is.  blink.gif  blink.gif  blink.gif

or its ok to steal from someone who has a lot of money, but its not cool to steal from someone who is poor.

just makes no since to me. unsure.gif
*


If beating the system of a billion dollar company to save a fellow collector a few cents is stealing.......... Then consider me a thief!

Our banks, credit companies and government steal from us daily. Me getting over on a few cents to help another collector does not prevent me from sleeping at night brother. I like to believe I am a man of values/morals and ethics. Stealing in this situation is subjective. One mans terrorists is the next mans freedom fighter.

Suggesting we shouldnt use the gift option when sending a payment for protection issues is a valid argument. Saying we shouldnt because we are stealing is hilarious IMO. Pay Pal was bought by ebay a while back for $1.5 billion.... They get no sympathy from me. IMHO they are raping and extorting us who make a living solely online!

Take Care.
-Jeremy
edgerrin32
QUOTE(Ilovetheheat @ Oct 1 2009, 01:20 PM)
If beating the system of a billion dollar company to save a fellow collector a few cents is stealing.......... Then consider me a thief!

Our banks, credit companies and government steal from us daily. Me getting over on a few cents to help another collector does not prevent me from sleeping at night brother. I like to believe I am a man of values/morals and ethics. Stealing in this situation is subjective. One mans terrorists is the next mans freedom fighter.

Suggesting we shouldnt use the gift option when sending a payment for protection issues is a valid argument. Saying we shouldnt because we are stealing is hilarious IMO. Pay Pal was bought by ebay a while back for $1.5 billion.... They get no sympathy from me. IMHO they are raping and extorting us who make a living solely online!

Take Care.
-Jeremy
*




is losing a few cent now and them going to bankrupt them. NO. but its still, wrong. i was raised not to steal, no matter if its little or big. and yes we all get cheated everyday. did you know that it cost cell phone companies nothing to send text messages!! but they still charge for it. and the government is looking at stepping in on this were it would be free. so if we get cheated its ok to cheat??? a eye for a eye make the world blind. pokey.gif
Ilovetheheat
QUOTE(edgerrin32 @ Oct 1 2009, 02:48 PM)
so if we get cheated its ok to cheat??? a eye for a eye make the world blind.  pokey.gif
*


I never said either of those.

I stand by my post on this issue. Pay Pal is raping simple average folks who make a living online. Cheating them out of a few cents is my form of giving them the finger.

Take care.
-Jeremy
edgerrin32
QUOTE(Ilovetheheat @ Oct 1 2009, 01:56 PM)
I never said either of those.

I stand by my post on this issue. Pay Pal is raping simple average folks who make a living online. Cheating them out of a few cents is my form of giving them the finger.

Take care.
-Jeremy
*




are they cheating us, NO. are they taking advantage of us and the situation, Yes. eBay is now trying to make it where you can only take paypal payments. so they can double dip on everything. i think if you sell on eBay, you should only have to pay one set of fees not both. pay the higher of the 2. if your sale is 8 bucks in ebay fees, and 5 in paypal fees, you would pay the 8 bucks and not the 5.
19th Century Indiana Jones
Has anyone ever been charged a fee for using Service?
edgerrin32
QUOTE(19th Century Indiana Jones @ Oct 1 2009, 02:06 PM)
Has anyone ever been charged a fee for using Service?
*




nope, my maid works for free. she tell me no fees jason, i dont wont you to pay me, so i can feed my family or anything like that. blink.gif unsure.gif

and i never charged my taxi customers because i liked getting them home safe. and i didn't need the money because im rich. laugh.gif laugh.gif and i don't have a son that needs diapers or food or clothes, or anything like that. because the stores give those out free, didn't you know?? blink.gif unsure.gif
Ilovetheheat
QUOTE(19th Century Indiana Jones @ Oct 1 2009, 03:06 PM)
Has anyone ever been charged a fee for using Service?
*


Allow me to clear any additional misconceptions my post may have sparked. I am not against paying fees. My beef is with the amount/percentage of fees. Ive spent close to $75 on the past 30 days in fees and thats nothing compared to some folks. My point is Pay Pal/Ebay is EXTORTING money from us. There is no way to justify fee's in excess of $100 a month for being a middle man. As was posted a little earlier.... Ebay only wants you to use Pay Pal to send payments...

Maybe I should write Obama..... While he is fighting for health care reform and Chicago's bid for the Olympics..... He could drop Pay Pal a phone call....


How about a monthly fee to receive payments based on the amount of money we receive?
Pay Pal fee's as it is now is ridiculous and absurd. Again, if sending payment as a gift is thievery..... I'll PM Bob and ask if I can change my username to ROBINHOOD!

Take Care.
-Jeremy
Ilovetheheat
QUOTE(edgerrin32 @ Oct 1 2009, 03:11 PM)
nope, my maid works for free.
*


I see why you dont care about fee's......... dry.gif
Heck, you can afford a maid. Whats Pay Pal fees to you. laugh.gif laugh.gif laugh.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif tongue.gif

Take care.
-Jeremy
edgerrin32
laugh.gif laugh.gif . i do like he idea of a per month fee. like if you bring in less than 1,000 a month but more than 500 charge like $25 bucks. if its over 5,000 but less than 10,000, charge like $100. something that is fare. but 20 bucks on less than 140 thats like 15%. but then again, think about your pay check. the government takes about 30% off the top. then they tax you when you spend, approximately another 10%. etc etc. laugh.gif
edgerrin32
QUOTE(Ilovetheheat @ Oct 1 2009, 02:21 PM)
I see why you dont care about fee's......... dry.gif
Heck, you can afford a maid. Whats Pay Pal fees to you. laugh.gif  laugh.gif  laugh.gif  tongue.gif  tongue.gif  tongue.gif

Take care.
-Jeremy
*




i was kidding laugh.gif im a poor guy, that got laid off. and im looking for a job.
Ilovetheheat
QUOTE(edgerrin32 @ Oct 1 2009, 03:27 PM)
but then again, think about your pay check. the government takes about 30% off the top. then they tax you when you spend, approximately another 10%. etc etc. laugh.gif
*


What does our government do with our taxes?
What does pay pal do with their fees? unsure.gif

Take care.
-Jeremy
skatalite
I send payments as gifts all the time for things. Doesn't bother me at all. If PayPal wanted, they'd put a limit on the number of times a gift can be sent by an individual. Maybe they will in the future, but for now, it's the way I'll do business if the other party is cool with that.

Another method of payment I've used a lot lately is via Amazon Gift Card. A lot of things can be bought off Amazon, including cards.

Shame on me.
otter8418
has anyone noticed that if you pay with gift now, it charges you more? if sent as a gift now, the sender pays the fees.
Hallsgator
Paypal is cracking down on people abusing the Gift payment system.
otter8418
QUOTE(Hallsgator @ Nov 23 2009, 04:09 PM)
Paypal is cracking down on people abusing the Gift payment system.
*




thank god. now i have a great comeback for break hosts that want it sent as a gift. i have never felt right about it and this thread taught me that i have no recourse if i send as gift and don't receive. i will happily send as payment again, now. i have to say that i agree with bob and those who think that cheating ebay out of fees is not right. they provide a service and for that fees should be assessed. if you don't like the fees associated with paypal, find another service.

as for the comments about extortion and cheating customers, i personally feel that the problem with today is that so many people feel that they should get everything for free and nothing is ever their fault or responsibility. nothing in life comes free and these businesses are based on profit. the beauty of this country isn't just the right to make a profit, but the right of the consumer to choose who they want to do business with. don't complain about capitalism....we could still have the monopolies of early america. paypal may SEEM like a monopoly but i assure you that it is not and could be much worse.

in the immortal words of Reservoir Dogs, "just throw in your buck like everyone else, ya cheap ######" wink.gif

thanks,

doug
urbanmonk
QUOTE
as for the comments about extortion and cheating customers, i personally feel that the problem with today is that so many people feel that they should get everything for free and nothing is ever their fault or responsibility. nothing in life comes free and these businesses are based on profit. the beauty of this country isn't just the right to make a profit, but the right of the consumer to choose who they want to do business with. don't complain about capitalism....we could still have the monopolies of early america. paypal may SEEM like a monopoly but i assure you that it is not and could be much worse.


Hit it right on the head Doug, couldn't have explained my point of view that well.

QUOTE
Paypal is cracking down on people abusing the Gift payment system.


Like I had said earlier in topic they would figuire it out once folks started abusing it. So now if you want to send money to your family you have to pay for it. Does that make all of you happy that were bucking the system? wink.gif As now nobody can send money to family for free it sounds like from what was said above.
edgerrin32
hey if you are worried about the fees, tell the person to send a extra buck or 2 to cover the fees!!! if they won't they don't want the item that bad do they.
northicehero99
Just want to push this topic to the top again, so that everyone is aware, there are to be no "gift" transactions on TCC, per Bob's request above. Going forward if we see it posted we will cancel the deal and warn your account, and if it continues by the same members then either restrictions or suspensions will be issued.

There are reasons why we do not want to allow the use of the Paypal "gift":
1. There are minors on this site who do not understand the concept that sending someone a "gift" is doing just that and they "technically" do not have to send you something.

2. Allowing members to do this opens "the door" for any less than "honest" person to initiate this and "rip" off members. The CZT work hard at trying to make sure that very few deals go bad, but in this type of case the paying member will probably have no recourse via Paypal which is one of the best ways to protect yourself from being "ripped off".

3. If you are hosting a break, take the time to build the fees into the price per group member joining, I am sure most people are not going to walk away from a break over an additional $1, as long as you are providing the kind of break that would attract them and since Paypal is now reversing the charge to the sender it no longer makes sense from either end to use this feature.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation with this request.
Mike Lindegarde
I didn't read the entire post, so perhaps this has come up... the comparison between PayPal and a bank is fundamentally wrong.

Accepting PayPal as payment should be compared to accepting credit cards, not your bank. When you, as a vendor, accept credit cards you have to pay a fee to the credit card companies (there's more involved than that, I'm just keeping it simple).

When you process a credit card online it first has to clear a through a gateway which charges you a fee for processing the transaction. The money from these transactions does not immediately go into your business bank account. The funds from the transaction processed by the gateway get moved to your company bank account in bulk at a set interval.

From a seller's perspective, PayPal works the same way. Keeping your income in the PayPal account and not earning interest on it is your own fault: move the funds to your bank account. You shouldn't be keeping a balance in your PayPal account in the first place. Do you complain because the change in your piggy bank isn't earning interest? No, you go put the money in the bank.

PayPal does not charge the buyer a fee and that's how it should be. Visa doesn't charge me a fee when I buy something at Target.

Comparing PayPal to your bank and saying you shouldn't have to pay fees because PayPal is earning money off of your PayPal balance is a lot like complaining because your spoon won't cut your steak. PayPal should be compared to credit card processing which is also not free and also does not pay you interest.

I don't side with Bob to often on this sort of thing, but in this case abusing the "gift" option is wrong.

mjda
Also, when you use the gift option, as a buyer, you're not covered if something goes south. wink.gif This might have been brought up before, but I didn't read the entire thread either.
northicehero99
Moving this topic back up there for our members to see the issue with using "gifts" via paypal, and why we do not allow use of this paypal feature for transactions.

Anyone doing this needs to stop immediately. Thanks.
edgerrin32
yea i have seen a lot of post lately of people trying to sell and it say XX.xx but only if paypal gift. just man up and pay the fees what is so hard to grasp about this!!

a solution is a short ban if you are trying to do this just a idea. im not trying to make anyone mad or get anyone in trouble but rules are rules!! and a rule on here is not to use the gift in a transaction.
avalanche
going back to the paypal/ebay fees. i like what edgerrin siad about a fair amount per month. one month i got $200 and it charged me $60. they take 12% of each item sold plus the listing fee. and to top it then you got to pay paypal fees. that add up!
Gsil84
Long time on this post.. Nice to see it still moving. I dont make payments as gifts. Unless I am making them to myself. For the longest time my Paypal account would not let me print shipping of any kind. I called them several times and they never fixed it till about 3 weeks ago. It was that way for about a year.. So I had to send myself money to a different account and print shipping from it.. That was my way of using it as a gift..

I can tell you one thing. On SCF everyone asks for it as a gift. And It has gotten so bad Some people put that in there sigs. Stating that they will not pay as a gift.. And neither do I.. I always throw a couple bucks on top of my prices for fees and shipping. If something sells on Ebay for 5 and 3 Shipping I feel 7 or 8 is not to much to ask.. I think its more the people buying than the people selling.. People always ask me if I will take less as a gift payment.. I always say No.. If they want it bad enough they will pay the price you want. .

Something has happened in the last few months on all the sites Im on.. More people are shipping damaged cards.. Or Shipping very very very slowly and even more are not mailing at all.. We all need to stick together and use the tools provided to us..

I'm glad TCC has taken this stand to protect the members of the site..
edgerrin32
we are all on the honor system when buying/selling/and trading. if we don't do something then one will. we all need to step up and be fair and be friends and help each other out so we can keep the hobby going. because it is becoming more of business and not a hobby anymore like it should be. and yes we all have bought low and sold high but we still like it as a hobby. so let keep the hobby fair and honest, because if you cheat the system why would you not cheat your friend or trading partner???? huh.gif
otter8418
people that find a way to cheat the system eventually make it worse on themselves when the company finds out and adjusts accordingly. a sense of entitlement and a fear that paypal is out to get you does not give you the right to cheat paypal and make it harder on those of us who conduct business honestly. sending payment as a gift, when it is not, is lying (not a gift), cheating (breaking the rules), and stealing (the fees that paypal gets for providing that service), and I would like to think that we are all capable of more than that.
Gsil84
Man I got a Pinned thread.. I feel important.. Good To see its still up here and that people are getting this information..
sschind
QUOTE(Mike Lindegarde @ Dec 9 2009, 10:43 AM)
Accepting PayPal as payment should be compared to accepting credit cards, not your bank.  When you, as a vendor, accept credit cards you have to pay a fee to the credit card companies (there's more involved than that, I'm just keeping it simple).


PayPal does not charge the buyer a fee and that's how it should be.  Visa doesn't charge me a fee when I buy something at Target.


*



I'm trying to avoid a bit of long overdue chores so this will likely get rather long. You have been warned. Proceed at your own risk.

Don't get me started on CC processing fees Mike. You and all your "you have to take my debit card for this $1.25 purchase because I never carry cash anymore" kind smile.gif Well, I got news for ya. The CC companies may say I have to take your card for a $1.25 purchase and the government may say I have to take your card for a $1.25 purchase but I say I'm not going to take your card for a $1.25 purchase. You want to complain go ahead smile.gif but in the mean time you had better find something else worth at least $3.75 to add to it or you go home without it.

Seriously though, services generally cost someone money somewhere down the line. Usually it the consumer that ends up paying. I don't think that people would be complaining about the fees if the companies weren't posting what appears to be obscene profits but you have to remember, ebay and Paypal are businesses. They are not non-profit organizations. They have stockholders and are committed to providing them with a return on their investment. Paypal is selling a product. They transfer money for you just like you sell a card to a guy across the country. Is it right that you or I or anyone else should determine how much profit they should make. Should someone step in and say that you can't sell that 1/1 Auto of Adrian Peterson for more than $100.00 because it cuts in on the profits of the person buying it. Of course not. No one wants anyone else dictating what they should be able to sell their products for but everyone seems to think they know what everyone else should be selling their products for. It's all pretty much the same. ( I know there are minor differences, ebay forcing people to use paypal only and the like but there are ways around that as well. Ways that do not violate TOS)

As far as the gift system. It was put in place for people to be able to send money as a legitimate gift without paying for it. It was a gesture of good will on PayPal's part and I am sure they figured it would get abused in some way. I am also quite sure that they knew it was costing them money in the way of lost fees. Some would contend that it was only a matter of time before they realized how much money they were losing and start taking their cut anyway (making the sender pay) and others would contend that it was abuse of the system that made made them change. It was probably a bit of both but the end result is now someone has to pay to send a gift.

The bottom line is if you are sending payment marked as a gift for something that is not a gift you are lying and yes, you are stealing. Many people think it is OK because it's a big corporation. Well, when the big corporation starts charging the legitimate users of their service because it is being abused by others then it stops affecting only the big corporations. It affects the grandmas and grandpas on fixed incomes sending a $10.00 birthday gift to their grandkids. (I'll pause to let you wipe away the tears) It affects the 1st grader who wants to donate 2 weeks allowance to the animal shelter to keep a cute little puppy or kitty from being gassed. (More kleenex... go ahead, I'll wait) It affects the billionaire who wants to save a few hundred bucks by... OK, him we don't care about but think of the puppies and kitties man.

Anyway, IMO it is wrong. I won't do it and I won't ask others to do it (In fact it never crossed my mind as I never knew there was such an option) If you want to do it I guess I'm fine by that. I'm not going to think that much less of you but I am certainly not going to come to your aid when the whole thing blows up in your face and you get ripped off. As long as you know the consequences, you can play by your own rules.

Oh yeah, FYI Visa doesn't give you those frequent flier miles, the retailers you use your credit cards with do so next time you use your debit card to buy that candy bar make sure you thank the store owner for putting you that much closer to your free flight to Vegas or wherever you are planning to go and maybe, just maybe you will understand why his "thank you" seemed just a little bit forced.

You were warned.
edgerrin32
just adding 1 thing. when you steal from Walmart they raise there prices to make up the loss!! so did you really make out or just lose more in the end????
Beavers98
Just ask for more money to cover the fees... Still if it's agreed upon??...Aren't the fees passed onto the person making payment if the gift option is chosen. For example I send 10 gift, but have to pay 10.70 or something for that person to get $10 in thier account.
RGBII
It is the policy of Trading Card Central
that Paypal payments as "gifts" are not
allowed.

There is no resolution program in
the case of a dispute when one utilizes
this form of payment.

Collect Hard!,
RGBII


dodgerblue38501
Here is a link to a TCC Member that is openly asking for Gift Payments:

TCC Member Asking for Paypal Gift Payments.....
Pejarox7620
QUOTE(Ilovetheheat @ Oct 1 2009, 12:20 PM)
Allow me to clear any additional misconceptions my post may have sparked. I am not against paying fees. My beef is with the amount/percentage of fees. Ive spent close to $75 on the past 30 days in fees and thats nothing compared to some folks. My point is Pay Pal/Ebay is EXTORTING money from us. There is no way to justify fee's in excess of $100 a month for being a middle man. As was posted a little earlier.... Ebay only wants you to use Pay Pal to send payments...

Maybe I should write Obama..... While he is fighting for health care reform and Chicago's bid for the Olympics..... He could drop Pay Pal a phone call....
How about a monthly fee to receive payments based on the amount of money we receive?
Pay Pal fee's as it is now is ridiculous and absurd. Again, if sending payment as a gift is thievery..... I'll PM Bob and ask if I can change my username to ROBINHOOD!

Take Care.
-Jeremy
*


I completely agree. The Fees are ridiculous we have to pay fees for selling on ebay and for getting the payment from selling to someone on ebay. I wouldn't be using Paypal at all but ebay requires you to have it to accept payment since they dont let you accept MO anymore. Paypal just nickel and dime you with their fees and i sell all the time on ebay. So my fees in excess of $1000...Paypal protection isn't really what its named either. Their protection plan doesn't work most of the time. I've been scammed so hard trying to use paypal and trying to recover my payment ($1300 for a Group break here) but i couldn't they said oh im sorry we cant do anything he has no more money. What protection is that? I don't know i wouldnt be using paypal if i didn't HAVE TO but im forced to...either way i thought the gift thing was a great way to get around paying fees but i guess we cant do that either..
tyrodsports
I have used Paypal for regular payments on cards purchased outside of Ebay and they have yet to offer me buyers protection. I got burned twice and paypal wouldnt do anything. Am I missing something?
sschind
There is a way to avoid 100% of ebay's fees and Paypals fees. Its 100% legal 100% foolproof. It doesn't violate any TOS and is so simple anyone can do it.

The secret is to not sell on Ebay and do not use paypal.

It couldn't get any easier than that.






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