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[Sheesh]

Accountable Mid-Term Elections

In 1994, the Republicans issued their Contract With America and were swept into office (our Mr. Radanovich being one of them), leading to their complete control of our federal government today. Central to their contract was holding government officials accountable for their actions. The third paragraph of the contract reads,

"Like Lincoln, our first Republican president, we intend to act "with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right." To restore accountability to Congress. To end its cycle of scandal and disgrace. To make us all proud again of the way free people govern themselves."

In the 12 years since the issuance of the Contract of America:

* We have a Republican president who lied to get us into a war, who spies on us without a warrant, and who says through decree that congressionally passed laws do not apply to his actions.

* We have a Republican congress that has created the largest deficit in United States history, gives tax breaks to the rich and the corporations they own, and at the same time takes away social protections for the middle class and poor.

* We have Republican leaders who have been indicted for receiving bribes, indicted for selling votes for political contributions, and indicted for exposing CIA agents working on terrorism issues for political purposes.

Those of you who helped elect these republican majorities because you believe in holding our government officials accountable: It is time to stand up again during the mid term elections this next November.

[aceecards]

Oh Mr. Sheesh...

Need I remind you of the last democratic president we had... I think his nickname was Slick Willie... and he couldnt keep his pants up even with suspenders or a full time intern ..


If you want to play politics... stick to the newspapers.. "for he who lives in glass house shouldnt throw stones"...


Or in a WWJD quote... May he who is without SIn cast the first stone. and everyone walked away..


Comparing the past to the present isnt fair to any politician demy or repo...
They go in to change the world and then power does its thing...

"Absoulte Power corrupts absolutely..."

Why do I let you bait me into responding to these threads...

[KHarmon]

Without getting in depth...you already know what I think....enough said...that's all she wrote.....

[Sheesh]

Oh, Ace

I'd rather have a president who lied about an affair than a president who lied and got over 2,200 killed and 25,000 wounded to date.

And, the scandals of the democratic congresses of the past pale in comparison to what this current congress has done, particularly with the selling votes issue. Just see over the next few months how the Abramoff issue unfolds.

But, what it comes down to for me are two things: I'd rather have a party that doesn't give away the store to the rich while the middle class and poor suffer AND a party that values the future of our/my children, as the future this current batch of republicans has created is as scary as the cold war. Pretty soon, they'll have drills in school again (I'm old enough to remember; are you?).

Ace, I do appreciate the banter. It is an important part of our democracy

[aceecards]

sheesh,

all of them are just as guilty as the next one in my opinion thereby the inclusion of the old adages about glass houses and stoning...

I Blame the demy's for the social welfare state that we currently live in..

FDR started it.. Truman continued it and Johnson expanded it...all demys I believe..

The repos have their own littany of programs started that I dont believe in either from Fords WIN program to reaganomics...(although he was pretty close just needed more tinkering.. I also didnt care for Bush and his offspring taking a personal vendetta against Saddam...

But if I was in the position of George Jr at the time of 9/11.. I know I wouldve taken the same actions as jr. did...

My ultimate point is...and certainly everyone in politics can agree on this..

Its not the party that created the criminal action.. It is the choice of the individual that created the problem..

To say that the republican party is the reason for the delay and abramoff incident is WAY OFF BASE... What really should be said is Individuals like Delay mad an individual decision to to what he did..

I'm sure there was no grand Poobah of the republican party saying... Oh its ok Tom.. Your above the law...because your a Republican..

Parties dont make criminals..people decide to become criminal...

No Tom Delay decided on his own, just like any criminal.. to commit his especial crime...yes it reflects poorly on the republican party becuase that is soceity..to group together all of the common bonds that tie...

here is a non-political example and question...

Are all Catholic priests child molestor because of the actions of a few misguided individuals?...

Absolutely NOT... but the media and soceity certainly tries to portray the Catholic Church as the problem not the individuals who really are...

See the common bond link there?

[Sheesh]

I do see the common link, Ace.

That said, Delay used the party and political contribution machines by creating PACs to support the party. Further, there are many republican leaders who have been tainted by the scandal: Ney left his post yesterday as a result of the scandal, Ney, who is the leader of the House Administration Committee that is responsible for ETHICS LAWS. DeLay and the current republican leadership have made the party over the past decade, so, in my mind, the two are linked in a culture of corruption.

Regarding social programs, that is the primary difference between dems and repubs. Dems (or, progressives like me) believe in taking from the rich and giving to the poor. We believe in a social safety net, to create a system of equal opportunity - not equal outcome. The best example of this is how we fund education - especially secondary (college). This evens the playing field more than anything else. Frankly, children need to be fed and housed REGARDLESS if they have terrible parents. With the recent tax breaks for the rich and trimming the deficit by cutting education, WIC, and other family support programs, we see where the repubs priorities really are.

Thanks for the long reply, Ace. We are free because of discussions like this.

[aceecards]

But Our country was not founded on the basis of socialism....

Our soceity is fill of Horatio Alger stories... Rags to riches....They become are muse to aspire to be more than what we are ...

If you want an equal playing field with no gumption and no aspirations goto siberia...

Ive worked hard all my life to get the material possessions I have.. to provide for my wife and kids...to make sure they are provided for if I die young.. to never be satisfied with my own accomplishments...

I have never taken a dime from the social side of the government and yet I donate my time and money to charities etc...food pantry..and on and on..to a network of families who live and abide by the social wlefare system handed down from generation to generation.. There are 5 generations worth of worthless people who have been kept alive by the government.. 5 generations!... You mean to tell me that if the government did not provide for great great great grandpa and his wife and kids... that the next generation wouldnt have got off thier lazy FREELOADING a$$ and got a job, education etc..then the vicious chain wouldve been stopped.. kids emulate their parents it is like that in the entire Animal kingdom which we are a part of...

So a tiger that has a litter, egts the Lion who is king to provide for her and her kids... guess what mom dies and lion dies... How long do those kittens last without being taught to ROOT HOG OR DIE!!! AND HUNT FOR THEMSELVES, FIND SHELTER FOR THEMSELVES ETC...they aint gonna last long...

and this is my point regarding what the social welfare state has created within our soceity..

I dont believe in it..It has created a whole class level of dependency on big brother or the govt that squashes dreams, squashes gumption and promotes LAZINESS AND STUPID PEOPLE!!

Root ! Hog or Die... Pull yourself up by the bootsraps... rags to riches... those are things that should be inbred into all children...that is survival of the fittest.. that is the animal kingdom that we are species of... that is why we are here.. to aspire to be great...

[Sheesh]

Root Hog or Die! Mojo Nixon and Skid Roper. A great album

The problem is there will always be poverty regardless of how rich a society may be. I believe that socialism WAS part of the Locke et. al. during the beginning of democractic movements of the 17th century. Part of the protection of minorities against an unjust majority. But, I digress.

The issue of equality of opportunity is present in our political discourse because, supposedly, we have become better citizens and better people. While it may be true that we have generations of folks who suck of the public, it is also true that we put many cultures - native american, african american - at a serious disadvantage by subjugating them, enslaving them, and outright genocide. People today forget that "whites only" facilities and laws were only a few short decades ago. These "policies" of the government and the belief in them by citizens pervade our culture today. These policies and beliefs have, IMHO, lead to generational poverty.

I would not be here today were it not for the public educational system. I have been living on my own since 16 and made my own way through graduate school Thank god for our Pell Grants and student loan system, as were it not for them, I would be working minimum wage jobs or fall in dispair and become one who takes rather than gives to society. These educational protections - a form of socialism - work.

Furthermore, children should not be left behind (right Mr. Bush?). Poverty and lack of opportunity that comes with it is not their fault. Social programs need to be in place for them, for the handicapped, the elderly and others in our society who are at risk.

Lastly, as the wealthiest nation in the world, the progressives of the early 20th century began the movement for socialist programs in our country. They believed there is a moral obligation to take care of our citizens to benefit society. Unfortunately, the rich don't like their money being used for the benefit of society, other than some amorphous "welfare capitalism" ideal.

A chicken in every pot. A roof over every head. A bandage for every wound. These are the basic rights of every human being. And, it is the moral responsibility for those who are fortunate to help those who are less fortunate. The government must redistribute wealth to make certain that this happens as it won't happen otherwise.

[aceecards]

A chicken in every pot.  A roof over every head.  A bandage for every wound.  These are the basic rights of every human being.  And, it is the moral responsibility for those who are fortunate to help those who are less fortunate.  The government must redistribute wealth to make certain that this happens as it won't happen otherwise.

Im sorry sheesh you directly quoted some democratic party ideals there didnt ya...

and where is it written that those are basic rights...Show me..If from Missouri...and I dont believe there are any basic rights for humans.. only traditions handed down from generation to generation..

If you want the government to redistribute wealth...all i can say is... they can start with yours...If you try to touch mine...well it wont be pleasant... what are they doing with the 7.65 % of my salary they already take... what are they doing with the 7.65% of my salary the boss pays to them... what are they doing with my federal income tax and state income tax and sales tax and this tax and that tax...

Whether a demy or repo has been in office the above tax description remains the same and has never lowered... oh they took away the marriage penalty but adjusted the scale anyway... they did this and did that and for what...

So I could feed some 5th generation welfare recipeient who lost their govt provided mansion in the hurricane in new orleans... You know what I have to say about that beings I fed and housed a couple who lost everything in Mississippi for over a month...I took matter into my own hands and opened my doors and my wallet to help those who I knew were going to help themselves... Im not the worlds greatest philanthropist and am not looking for pats on backs or thank you or even any recognition... I wouldve taken more if Id had the room.. but the point is.. the government didnt help these folks.. they helped themselves.. why becuase that is how they wwerre raised... The American work ethic has been instilled in them in their youth...

And If I hear one more time the lament of Native americans or african americans about slavery... reservations whatever their special case maybe.. is just an excuse to keep mooching and to raise their children to mooch...And Sheesh if this really was the case.. that its the white man putting these people down.. then explain to me why hundreds of mexicans cross the border everyday to get to our country... explain that phenomenon too me in your socialistic viewpoints..

You know what you cant.. why... because the mexican government agrees with me Root! Hog or Die!!!...they provide little or no welfare to those that are able (not handicapped) to provide for themselves...So they take their great work ethic and come here and take jobs that all the welfare recipients could take that is "below their intelligence"... The real reason isnt below their intelligence.. its that they are too fat, too stupid, too LAZY and too dependent on free handouts.. that it would affect their comfy lifestyle...or miss their afternoon soaps...

So stop giving me these cry baby whining BS your trying to pass on here... You are just going to create some lazy worthless person for the future and undo what their parents did...

People dont depend on the government... if able , depend on yourself... stop looking for what you think you are owed and EARN IT...

and that is my bottomline cause I said SO!!!!

[Sheesh]

A good discussion. Thank you for engaging in it!

The Fresno Bee, a Calfifornia newspaper with a circulation of around a million, is printing my editorial. They called earlier today.

First, thanks for the work that you do. You and your family are no doubt committed, through your actions, to improving society and helping those in need.

Actually, Ace, the Democratic party is too much like their Republican counterparts for my talking points to be there's. Frankly, I'm much to left of the dems for them to accept me. But, you know the rule, the lesser of two evils. I'm one who is pushing for a Social Democracy like much of northern Europe.

Basic human rights to me are:

* Freedom of action that doesn't infringe on the rights of others
* Freedom of speach, regardless of social acceptability
* Housing, food and healthcare

Regarding native americans and african americans, it is easy for we white people to speak and poo poo their generational plight. Time heals all, but I've been on the reservations, I've been in the inner cities. I've seen what their cultures have become. Native americans really got the worst of the shaft. We tried to wipe them out and, when we couldn't, gave them worthless land and said, "Make a living". But, we digress.

To me, the Dems are the lesser of two evils at this time in history. This batch of republican politicians have shown that they are scandalously incompetent, greedy, and uncaring. It's too bad that it is not the party of Lincoln or Teddy Roosevelt.

One last story:

I used to work for the feds. I left (or was driven off) because I was a whistle-blower. I have a Masters of Public Administration and was a management official at several National Parks. There is a law on the books that requires National Park units to tell the public, through a yearlyreport, how their money was spent and what was achieved (or not) while spending it. They refused to do it.

So, in my mind, the problem is that we, as citizens, do not DEMAND THROUGH OUR CONGRESSPEOPLE that we are told how our money is spent and whether or not goals and targets are being achieved. WE are just at fault as anyone for not pressing our elected officials AND federal bureaucrats to account. WE are too damn lazy to get involved and attempt to change the system. Instead, we complain and do not act.

I'm just calling for action in this next mid term election.

[aceecards]

.....

..and If elected.. I promise you.....

Nothing....Absolutely Nothing...

But my hard work, my honesty and constant attempts to put my best foot forward for this country... I CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE...!

.......

Would you vote for a candidate who came out and actually said what he could do ...

I would...

[Sheesh]

I would too.

[aceecards]

Should I run for mayor of maryland Heights.. I have over a hundred residents petioning me to run...

[Sheesh]

Go for it. You seem like a fella who cares about society. It is important for us all to be politically active, either by voting or running.

[aceecards]

sheesh...

I just got to say... I so welcome having these discussions with someone of intellect... My good friend who passed two years ago and I used to discuss politics all the time...

I miss him ...thanks for filling the void...

I used to tell him all the time not to bait me into political discussions but he did..always...that is why i cant resist these posts of your...

Please dont ever take offense with my discourse with you...sometimes it seems personal.. but im just trying to use a sledge hammer over your head to make you see my side....

It makes for good reading but im sorry more dont want to join in.. certainly the other highly intellectual people on this board have some thoughts or input in this matter.. Please join in...Ill pardon Kris since he has a bigger sledgehammer than both of us...

Thanks sheesh...Im smiling tonight

[Sheesh]

Thank you, Ace. Such kind and unexpected words that made ME smile.

I do not take offense until I believe there has been a personal attack, of which I have not even felt such thing with our discussions.

I, too, wish more would engage in these discussions. It is an important part of our democracy.

Come on, folks! I do hope that Ace and I are showing you that politics CAN be discussed in a respectful and enjoyable manner!

[Bondsaway]

I would have joined in but so loved watching this tennis match of yours. I have to side with Steve on this. I'm sick and tired of hearing people almost demand the government to help them. When they don't get it oh crap lets use something like the race card! Look at the hurricane, government didn't act fast enough and right away it was the white man trying to kill off the blacks! The mayor of New Orleans said yesterday in a speech, new orleans would be a chocolate town! His words not mine! Had I a white male in his 40's said that on tv I would have been sentenced to death by the media!!
You want social reform? Reform the thinking of the socity! I've been working since the age of 16. I didn't resort to robbing people or selling crack nor did I stand on a soap box and ask wheres mine!!! Tell me why is it the government that has to shell out housing for the people that can work? If I had to take a second job at Mcdonalds to help my family I would. Yet in your state of california no one on welfare will work the fields like the immigrants?
Why is that, oh yea why lower my standards and break my back to earn a living. If a bridge broke and 2 people fell in the water who would you save the one that can't swim or the swimmer. You'd save the non swimmer because thats what we as humans have been taught. But if they jump back in the water someone tell me why I should risk my life trying to help them?
I hear you talk like it will make a difference wheather it be the chinese running the white house. Both parties will bicker and they'll keep giving themselves pay raises its not all on the politicians but the people as well.
I'm completely lost now and my head hurts. Think I'll just head down to the bell tower with my rifle and change the world that way!

[Sheesh]

No Kent State here, Bonds Don't resort to that!

I'm a progressive that believes that the government should either put people in or find folks who are on the public dole a job. Unfortunately, the Supreme Court ruled that is not an option.

Regarding immigrants and farm labor work, there is a job the welfare folks can do. Unfortunately, the agricultural industry doesn't want to pay a decent, living wage which is the reason average US folks will not work in the fields. It isn't the kind of work but the pay. WE are at fault for this as we continue to demanding food costs that remain artificially low. The ag industry relies on illegal immigrant labor to get their jobs done at a low cost. Interestingly, most of the ag industry leaders are republican and against any meaningful immigration reform because they would lose their low paying labor pool. I want immigration reform, too, like most americans. Unfortunately, both dems and repubs have their reasons for not supporting it. Another reason to hold our elected officials accountable this next mid-term.

And, yes. I, too, believe in a 3 strikes way to solve the problem of folks helping themselves. I'd let the fool who jumped back into the water drown, too.

The problem with our governmental system is that we have a two party, winner take all, system, where a plurality is all it takes to rule. In my mind, a parlamentary democracy with many parties is the ticket to solving many of our social, and political, problems. Coalitions would need to be formed to make a government, which would mean serious compromise on social policies rather than the current ram it down your throat ways of the party in power. We have approximately 50% of the public that is now not represented in a meaningful manner with the other 50% imposing their will. This is not right. For example, I would imagine that we would have meaningful immigration reform if the Libratarians were necessary to allow the republicans a majority they would need to rule (they currently rule with only a plurality of the popular vote).

Thanks for getting involved, Bonds! Keep it up!

[Bondsaway]

Ok now I agree with what you said as well. Too many times no matter who gets in the dems or reps then its a winner takes all and the other party spends the next 4 yrs trying to veto everything. When will the politicians start working together to better the country instead of every 4 years fighting to prove they are better than the other party! One last thing how did arnold get elected in california? Whoever he ran againest must have sucked like a black hole!

[Sheesh]

Gov. Grey Davis was recalled. A fella by the name of Bruce Bustamante ran against him.

Arnold won because of name recognition, nothing more. He won't win again, as his approval rating is less than 40%.