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Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 7 2009, 10:25 PM

Is this wrong?? I have had alot of people ask me to send payment as a gift.. I have no problem doing it. But Some people are getting a hard time for doing it.
But I know I spend money on Shipping and packing the cards. And always give a better deal when not using Paypal.. So Im trying to save people money by taking gift payments. Including myself..If I ever do.

To me Paypal offers me no protection. I have had several deals where Paypal was wrong and still went with the wrong end of the deal..

I have money in my Paypal account and they pay me no interest. So what service are they providing me?? That I'm not paying for??

Just like to know that other people think.. Thanks..

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 7 2009, 10:28 PM

Brian,

I'll simply copy and paste the response that I just posted in a transaction...

If a seller is going to use a payment service such as PayPal to make it easy to collect payments, then the seller needs to be willing to accept the fees that are associated with using that service. If the seller isn't willing to accept those fees, then they should find another way of collecting payments. Honestly, we're simply not going to condone the use of personal payments for transactions that are clearly outside the scope of the acceptable use cases listed at https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=KlKLGHLnflQQL3j1WWjnYNhZlZjvsW6zpJs202hFqkSLCBtlfjQl!-726335105?locale=en_US&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=US&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9006&t=solutionTab&ft=searchTab&ps=solutionPanels&solutionId=11068&isSrch=Yes on PayPal's web site.

-Bob

Posted by: coltsfan23 Sep 7 2009, 10:29 PM

I find Paypal quite useful and the gift option is cool in that when receiving payments, it doesn't take any fees away from you.

Your post doesn't make any sense to me. Half of it is incoherent and the other half, I just simply disagree with. To each his own, I guess.

Oh, and I also use paypal shipping, which is very helpful, but with gifts, you have to type in the address and print the label. You can't just go under "print label" next to the payment when receiving payment as a gift.

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 7 2009, 10:34 PM

If that method is used for accepting payments for purchases (as defined by PayPal), please explain how that is not being deceptive in order to use a service without paying for that service.



There's a logical reason why the shipping tools work that way... Why are you shipping packages related to gifts or personal payments? Reference my comments from above.

-Bob

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 7 2009, 10:35 PM

I dont use Paypal shipping becuase mine has not worked for about 6 months. I have called them a few times and they have never got it to work..

Bob Im just asking.. To me Paypal is like my bank.. I have money in it and they pay me no intrest.. But still use my money just like a bank.. So that is my fees.

I was also trying to find out what people think..

Posted by: coltsfan23 Sep 7 2009, 10:37 PM

I'm not saying it's not deceptive per se. I've never sent a payment to someone else via gift if it wasn't intended for that purpose. However, I have no problem receiving it as a gift if the buyer is willing to as I save on fees that way.

And I know there's a logical reason for that, Bob. There's also a reason why there's little to no protection when money is sent as a gift. I'm not sure as to why you feel as if I'm ignorant on these matters. I just felt the need to add that little tidbit as it pertained to the thread. No need to talk down...

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 7 2009, 10:38 PM

Sorry I think I got something started..

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 7 2009, 10:38 PM

Brian,

Many banks have fees associated with their accounts - e.g., ATM fees and more. Just like PayPal, you know those fees when you decide to use their services. If you don't want to pay the fees, find another service provider that doesn't have the fees.

-Bob

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 7 2009, 10:40 PM

Im sorry but to me Paypal doesnt offer any protection anyways. I have seen alot of times where one person is wrong and Paypal still sides with that person.

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 7 2009, 10:43 PM

I guess thats why I bank at my bank. Everything is free.. I'm not trying to be rude. But Im asking..

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 7 2009, 10:47 PM

Brian,

This isn't just about their conflict resolution services. That's an important component of this discussion as well though, but we can discuss that in more detail later.

You are using a service that allows you to transfer money between accounts electronically. That service allows you to exchange funds in seconds from the comfort of your home. That service allows you to avoid paying the fees associated with purchasing a money order. That service allows you to avoid paying the postage necessary to mail cash, a money order or a check. That service helps you avoid the risk involved with mailing such payment types. PayPal believes that the service has some value. Therefore, PayPal charges fees for that service.

-Bob

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 7 2009, 10:51 PM

Understood, Brian.

That same freedom exists when deciding what payment methods to accept for online transactions though. So, I'm simply suggesting that members either need to pay the fees associated with the service or find another way to accept methods. Using deception to avoid the fees while still using the service doesn't seem like an acceptable option.

-Bob

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 7 2009, 10:52 PM

I'm just asking.. I dont pay for Money Orders at my bank.. And can also send money via my bank free.. I wanted to know what people thought about it.. I like talking about these kind of things..

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 7 2009, 10:54 PM

I guess when your taking payments you cant diecide how they send the money.. Right??

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 7 2009, 11:01 PM

Have you ever requested that someone send a personal payment for a purchase?



Ankesh,

I didn't suggest that you were ignorant and I didn't talk down to you. Honestly, you need to lose the tendency to always assume that others are looking to "start something" with you.

-Bob

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 7 2009, 11:06 PM

Brian,

I'd agree with that statement. However, I'd certainly suggest that most buyers would choose the PayPal payment options that are most relevant to the reason they are sending money. From what I've been seeing recently, buyers are generally only sending personal payments when the sellers are specifically requesting that they do so.

Just to be clear... If anyone asks me to send a payment for a purchase using the personal payment option, I will let them know that I am not willing to send payment in that way. They can either accept the proper type of payment or I will spend my money elsewhere.

-Bob

Posted by: wildboyz_211 Sep 7 2009, 11:44 PM

Doesnt paypal offer interest on the balance? I know mine does (Premier account)...and as for your issue as to paypal siding with wrong people, if you do things PAYPAL'S ways, then you will always win (e.g. tracking numbers w/ insurance - and pictures of the item for example)...

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 8 2009, 12:12 AM

Sure do things there way. But if someone says they didnt get the card or If I say the card is damaged and prove it. They always seem to go for the other guy.. Maybe its just me??

This is why I like to talk about things.. I learn and so do others.. Not trying to be rude. Just asking. Maybe I was wrong to do that?

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 8 2009, 12:20 AM

Brian,

I don't believe anyone has suggested that you're being rude or were wrong for posting this topic. To the contrary, I think this is a topic that needs to be discussed.

-Bob

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 8 2009, 12:28 AM

I think its good to talk about these things also.. One of the things not brought up in this is that you cant protest a gift. So if you send someone a gift payment and they dont send your out the money with no protection..

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 8 2009, 12:59 AM

Brian,

That's definitely another important aspect of this discussion. As a buyer, you are directly hurting yourself by removing your ability to dispute a transaction that doesn't proceed as desired. In other words, PayPal isn't going to offer any type of conflict resolution services for gifts and/or other types of personal payments.

-Bob

Posted by: urbanmonk Sep 8 2009, 01:28 AM

I think the issue is more that transactions being set up that way specifing that, as in the seller requesting payment that way. Which if someone says "hey they ripped me off" and we say "file a Paypal claim is your best recourse" and they say "but I sent it as a gift" then response probably be "well you just gave them a gift I guess" .



I believe you can refuse any payment with Paypal, granted not done very much but if someone sent you money accidently by typing in wrong addy would be a case. And I imagine that would be case with any type of payment.

People have their own set of ethics/morals, so folks can do what they choose if that's what they want to do and feel it is worth the risk/consequences. But then they are on their own if something happens or can only blame themselves from their own decisions in life (applies to many things in life, a whole multitude of decisions one makes in life on a regular basis).

Discussions are good, as long as they stay a discussion and not a mud slinging festival as that is how we learn

Posted by: wildboyz_211 Sep 8 2009, 03:10 AM

I worked for a powerseller on ebay, and he knows all the rules and guidelines for paypal. And when we shipped something, we shipped tracking number and insurance required - everytime. And on top of that, when we took pictures, we took multiple shots - now that wouldnt be necessary with cards, but a good front back scan would suffice. So that way if a paypal dispute did come up you would have proof of what the card looked like before you handed it to the postal service. And because you have insurance, if anything happened to it afterward, the postal service would pay for it.

Posted by: bigalexx Sep 8 2009, 03:12 AM

If you can't deal with the fees then don't use paypal. Either don't use it, or comply with their "rules." Using paypal and then picking and choosing which "rules" you can work around is acting like a 3rd grader . You are intentionally breaking their TOS.

EDIT: Re-reading this comes across like I'm speaking specifically to you, I'm not talking specifically to you Gsil, this is directed to everyone who ask for payment as a "gift"

Posted by: northicehero99 Sep 8 2009, 05:13 AM

I think the biggest "keys" to this is that:

A. Your transaction with paypal is not really a "gift" as you are providing a service or product for someone else's payment.

B. BUYER BEWARE as you loose all right to get those funds back when you pay as a "gift" even if you are buying a service, you have given a "GIFT".

For those reasons alone members should not be "buying" services/products using the "gift" feature.

Posted by: metsfan2427 Sep 8 2009, 06:41 AM

Paypal had to know this was going to happen.
People were going to abuse it. To avoid fees. i know most people are forums only take paypal payments as gifts now

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 8 2009, 08:33 AM

I'm sure they did.. But they can take the good with the bad. No fees, means more people will take Paypal for payment. And that means more people going to there website. More people on the site, means they can charge more for advertising on the site.

Why I like gift payments!!
I have to use the gift payment every time I want to ship something.. So I'm glad they have it.. I have two accounts, one where the shipping has not worked for 6 months or more. So I have to send myself money to a different account and print my postage from there..

So I'm glad that I can send it as a gift!!

I think this kind of goes along the line of fake cards.. People trying to make or scam money is where it will go in the long run.. They will ask for a gift. Then not send..

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 8 2009, 08:48 AM

If this is an accurate statement, then what does this say about collectors?

-Bob

Posted by: metsfan2427 Sep 8 2009, 08:49 AM

i see that coming a huge issue down the road. once more people find out about gifts. this is pretty much a dream for scammers.

Posted by: metsfan2427 Sep 8 2009, 08:50 AM

Bob,
i am not saying everyone is doing it. but it seems to become a big trend.

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 8 2009, 08:52 AM

Actually, I would argue that it's already at the point of trying "to make or scam money" - just at PayPal's expense instead of the expense of other collectors. In my mind, it's one and the same.

With that said, you're correct in that this practice is just going to make online collector-to-collector transactions even more difficult because collectors are freely giving up some of the protections they have in exchange for a few coins here and there.

-Bob

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 8 2009, 08:52 AM

I dont think it says anything about collectors. It's people in general.. They are hurt for cash or sick of big company's?? Or just don't want to pay?? Like with file sharing.. Most people don't care if some Huge company is losing money.. Just like most huge company's don't care about the consumer..

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 8 2009, 08:59 AM

Again...

If people don't want to pay for a service that has associated fees, then don't use the service.

Furthermore, why are collectors buying pieces of cardboard if they are hurting for money so much that they have to figure out how to use deception to avoid PayPal fees?

-Bob

Posted by: metsfan2427 Sep 8 2009, 08:59 AM

very true
The companys want to make a profit and keep customers besides that they really don't care.

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 8 2009, 09:01 AM

So, let me get this right... Companies should just provide their products and services for free, right?

-Bob

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 8 2009, 09:01 AM

The same reason people with no money still smoke and drink.. LOL

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 8 2009, 09:04 AM

I think what he is saying is that they only care about the money. You pay for something. They get your money, they don't care anymore.. They already have your money. They know you will come back?? Or don't care because your just one person.

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 8 2009, 09:07 AM

Yes, I've heard this argument before in relation to various aspects of life. It's all part of the justification process.

-Bob

Posted by: metsfan2427 Sep 8 2009, 09:08 AM

correct. money is usually the number 1 concern of the company.

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 8 2009, 09:11 AM

Again....

I'm just asking... One other thing we have not talked about is what will TCC do if things go wrong with gift payments used on transactions??

Will both members be in trouble? One for not sending and the other for using Paypal in the wrong way??

Should that be a rule on TCC??

Anyone using Paypal or any service to pay for transactions in the wrong way will be open to punishment under TCC's guidelines...

We all know this is going to be an issue.. Lets work it out before it becomes to big..

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 8 2009, 09:13 AM

Would you want profitability to be a minimal concern for a company? If it's the company that pays your salary, would you still hope that they aren't worried about collecting the fees associated with their products and/or services?

-Bob

Posted by: metsfan2427 Sep 8 2009, 09:15 AM

i don't think a rule with stop people from doing it.
maybe a pinned topic warning people. that there is no protection with this payment

Posted by: metsfan2427 Sep 8 2009, 09:18 AM

Bob,
i don't think you get what i am saying. I am not saying everything should be free.
I don't completely agree with the paypal fees. But you pay for what you get.
Currently paypal is the easiest way and safest to pay for online transactions.

Posted by: urbanmonk Sep 8 2009, 09:38 AM

Paypal has that option so you can send friends/family money w/o being charged for gift. If it is continually abused, they will figuire out that John Doe is getting way too many gifts every month, and they will just remove that option so that everyone that recieves money is now charged. So is that fair to folks wanting to use it that way?

Companies like that don't stay in business very long. I don't know about the rest of you but if I have enough bad experiences I will no longer spend my money on a company when there is plenty of other companies providing that service. Same as when you have a good experience you will tell a handful of people, when you have a bad experience you will tell those same people and a bunch of other people (many times what you would tell if a good experience), as it is human nature.



I don't make the rules. But to me it is like safety guards on machines at work, you can only protect people from doing something stupid to a certain extent (granted with those kind of safetys OSHA makes you go overboard). But to me if folks don't want to follow things that are their to help them, then they are on their own as they are not helping us help them at all (making it much more difficult) so my time will be spent elsewhere it is needed. If folks don't care about the risk they added, then I guess they don't mine the extra consequences that go with it either and have no place to complain.

Posted by: dodgerblue38501 Sep 8 2009, 10:40 AM

Dwight is exactly right! So once again those trying to get something for nothing will cost the rest of us money that are trying to do what is right. That is America folks!

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 8 2009, 10:46 AM

James,

Thanks for making your view on the subject clear.

-Bob

Posted by: bob_TCC Sep 8 2009, 10:51 AM

As mentioned earlier, we're simply not going to condone the use of personal payments for transactions that are clearly outside the scope of the acceptable use cases listed at https://www.paypal.com/helpcenter/main.jsp;jsessionid=KlKLGHLnflQQL3j1WWjnYNhZlZjvsW6zpJs202hFqkSLCBtlfjQl!-726335105?locale=en_US&_dyncharset=UTF-8&countrycode=US&cmd=_help&serverInstance=9006&t=solutionTab&ft=searchTab&ps=solutionPanels&solutionId=11068&isSrch=Yes on PayPal's web site.

So, I've already begun to inform sellers that they need to refrain from requesting personal payments for purchases. If a member continues that practice despite being asked to stop, it will be addressed.

-Bob

Posted by: Gsil84 Sep 8 2009, 11:29 AM

Thats good to know.. That way if someone asks for a gift payment for a transaction know I have the backing of TCC when I say I will not send the payment that way.. Not that i need it but it's still good to know that you guys are doing whats best for the members on the site..

I think this has been a very good thread..

Posted by: northicehero99 Sep 8 2009, 11:46 AM

If you should see it please report it to a Team Member. Thanks.

Posted by: DrewDude Sep 10 2009, 04:59 PM

There is a simple solution to the PayPal fee problem that doesn't break their terms of service. As long as your not a big time card dealer (under $500 per month), just make a personal account when making your PayPal account. There are no fees on any transaction, and you are still allowed to take 5 credit card payments per month.
Even if you expand past getting paid $500 a month on PayPal, you can always move your account up to Premier free, fast, and easy. Basically, if you are planning on nickel and diming PayPal on their fees, you probably aren't doing enough business to warrant anything more than a Personal account anyway, so you should just sign up for Personal and get no fees the fair and easier way.

Posted by: benshobbies Sep 10 2009, 07:13 PM

And I, as a loyal Paypal customer am willing to take them. Since when does any other service allow you to take money from someone's Canadian bank account, and transfer it to an American bank account? Or much more so, than allowing me to pay $4.00 for a computer part that someone has in Hong Kong, without me having to buy Chinese money?!

Posted by: northicehero99 Oct 1 2009, 11:49 AM

Just wanted to make this topic visible for any new members not familiar with the "gift" function of paypal, and TCC's opinion on the use of that function.

Posted by: bluechip Oct 1 2009, 11:57 AM

I agree with your statements, but it can be viewed as an exchange of gifts by the 2 parties.

Posted by: edgerrin32 Oct 1 2009, 12:27 PM

i see tons of people bashing people about pack search, why not bash people for stealing, or lying? isn't that what you are doing when you pack search?? we all hate the fees, i think eBay/and paypal fees are a tad high, i sold around 140 worth of coins on ebay, and the paypal/eBay fees together were around 20 bucks, i think that's a lot for 140 bucks, but i paid it.

also i believe if you have money on your paypal acct and you send it as a payment, i think there is no fees. im not 100% sure on this though, so don't take my word for it. maybe if we could contact paypal and see if they would work with us on lower fees or since we do bring them a lot of business. most likely they wont but its worth a shot.

so man up, pay the fees, stop lying, cheating, stealing, and pack searching

Posted by: Ilovetheheat Oct 1 2009, 12:36 PM

Here is my two cents....

I would never send payment as a gift if the deal was over $15 or if I didnt know or have a relationship with the seller....

With that said I have and will continue to send payments as gifts in the future if A. I know the seller and have dealt with him previously or B. the amount is less than $15.

I sell just as much as I buy/trade here and elsewhere... At the end of the month when you add up all the fees you incur on ebay/paypal etc it does take a chunk of your profit. I have no problem spending a few extra cents to help a seller out with fees.

I did not always have this outlook on the matter..... After receiving around 10 payments from various sites(All under$10) as gifts(their choice) it made me smile and think to myself..... Heck, a few more cents wont hurt me.



Alot of you guys make some valid points though... I would never request a payment be sent as a gift. That is your choice. Also, Id never send payment as a gift for anything high end or when buying in bulk. There is no protection for either of the parties involved......

Take Care.
-Jeremy

Posted by: edgerrin32 Oct 1 2009, 12:40 PM

so its ok to steal a candy bar because its only $1. but not ok to steal a car, because its $25,000. stealing is stealing no matter how big or small it is.

or its ok to steal from someone who has a lot of money, but its not cool to steal from someone who is poor.

just makes no since to me.

Posted by: degibson84 Oct 1 2009, 01:02 PM

paypal does have a money market fund that earns you a very small percent of interest. im not sure the deatails but i have thought about it as i keep my card spending money there so i dont have to use the bank account.

Posted by: Ilovetheheat Oct 1 2009, 01:20 PM

If beating the system of a billion dollar company to save a fellow collector a few cents is stealing.......... Then consider me a thief!

Our banks, credit companies and government steal from us daily. Me getting over on a few cents to help another collector does not prevent me from sleeping at night brother. I like to believe I am a man of values/morals and ethics. Stealing in this situation is subjective. One mans terrorists is the next mans freedom fighter.

Suggesting we shouldnt use the gift option when sending a payment for protection issues is a valid argument. Saying we shouldnt because we are stealing is hilarious IMO. Pay Pal was bought by ebay a while back for $1.5 billion.... They get no sympathy from me. IMHO they are raping and extorting us who make a living solely online!

Take Care.
-Jeremy

Posted by: edgerrin32 Oct 1 2009, 01:48 PM

is losing a few cent now and them going to bankrupt them. NO. but its still, wrong. i was raised not to steal, no matter if its little or big. and yes we all get cheated everyday. did you know that it cost cell phone companies nothing to send text messages!! but they still charge for it. and the government is looking at stepping in on this were it would be free. so if we get cheated its ok to cheat??? a eye for a eye make the world blind.

Posted by: Ilovetheheat Oct 1 2009, 01:56 PM

I never said either of those.

I stand by my post on this issue. Pay Pal is raping simple average folks who make a living online. Cheating them out of a few cents is my form of giving them the finger.

Take care.
-Jeremy

Posted by: edgerrin32 Oct 1 2009, 02:04 PM

are they cheating us, NO. are they taking advantage of us and the situation, Yes. eBay is now trying to make it where you can only take paypal payments. so they can double dip on everything. i think if you sell on eBay, you should only have to pay one set of fees not both. pay the higher of the 2. if your sale is 8 bucks in ebay fees, and 5 in paypal fees, you would pay the 8 bucks and not the 5.

Posted by: 19th Century Indiana Jones Oct 1 2009, 02:06 PM

Has anyone ever been charged a fee for using Service?

Posted by: edgerrin32 Oct 1 2009, 02:11 PM

nope, my maid works for free. she tell me no fees jason, i dont wont you to pay me, so i can feed my family or anything like that.

and i never charged my taxi customers because i liked getting them home safe. and i didn't need the money because im rich. and i don't have a son that needs diapers or food or clothes, or anything like that. because the stores give those out free, didn't you know??

Posted by: Ilovetheheat Oct 1 2009, 02:20 PM

Allow me to clear any additional misconceptions my post may have sparked. I am not against paying fees. My beef is with the amount/percentage of fees. Ive spent close to $75 on the past 30 days in fees and thats nothing compared to some folks. My point is Pay Pal/Ebay is EXTORTING money from us. There is no way to justify fee's in excess of $100 a month for being a middle man. As was posted a little earlier.... Ebay only wants you to use Pay Pal to send payments...

Maybe I should write Obama..... While he is fighting for health care reform and Chicago's bid for the Olympics..... He could drop Pay Pal a phone call....


How about a monthly fee to receive payments based on the amount of money we receive?
Pay Pal fee's as it is now is ridiculous and absurd. Again, if sending payment as a gift is thievery..... I'll PM Bob and ask if I can change my username to ROBINHOOD!

Take Care.
-Jeremy

Posted by: Ilovetheheat Oct 1 2009, 02:21 PM

I see why you dont care about fee's.........
Heck, you can afford a maid. Whats Pay Pal fees to you.

Take care.
-Jeremy

Posted by: edgerrin32 Oct 1 2009, 02:27 PM

. i do like he idea of a per month fee. like if you bring in less than 1,000 a month but more than 500 charge like $25 bucks. if its over 5,000 but less than 10,000, charge like $100. something that is fare. but 20 bucks on less than 140 thats like 15%. but then again, think about your pay check. the government takes about 30% off the top. then they tax you when you spend, approximately another 10%. etc etc.

Posted by: edgerrin32 Oct 1 2009, 03:44 PM

i was kidding im a poor guy, that got laid off. and im looking for a job.

Posted by: Ilovetheheat Oct 1 2009, 04:18 PM

What does our government do with our taxes?
What does pay pal do with their fees?

Take care.
-Jeremy

Posted by: skatalite Oct 5 2009, 10:55 PM

I send payments as gifts all the time for things. Doesn't bother me at all. If PayPal wanted, they'd put a limit on the number of times a gift can be sent by an individual. Maybe they will in the future, but for now, it's the way I'll do business if the other party is cool with that.

Another method of payment I've used a lot lately is via Amazon Gift Card. A lot of things can be bought off Amazon, including cards.

Shame on me.

Posted by: otter8418 Nov 23 2009, 04:01 PM

has anyone noticed that if you pay with gift now, it charges you more? if sent as a gift now, the sender pays the fees.

Posted by: Hallsgator Nov 23 2009, 04:09 PM

Paypal is cracking down on people abusing the Gift payment system.

Posted by: otter8418 Nov 23 2009, 04:28 PM

thank god. now i have a great comeback for break hosts that want it sent as a gift. i have never felt right about it and this thread taught me that i have no recourse if i send as gift and don't receive. i will happily send as payment again, now. i have to say that i agree with bob and those who think that cheating ebay out of fees is not right. they provide a service and for that fees should be assessed. if you don't like the fees associated with paypal, find another service.

as for the comments about extortion and cheating customers, i personally feel that the problem with today is that so many people feel that they should get everything for free and nothing is ever their fault or responsibility. nothing in life comes free and these businesses are based on profit. the beauty of this country isn't just the right to make a profit, but the right of the consumer to choose who they want to do business with. don't complain about capitalism....we could still have the monopolies of early america. paypal may SEEM like a monopoly but i assure you that it is not and could be much worse.

in the immortal words of Reservoir Dogs, "just throw in your buck like everyone else, ya cheap ######"

thanks,

doug

Posted by: urbanmonk Nov 24 2009, 02:33 PM

Hit it right on the head Doug, couldn't have explained my point of view that well.



Like I had said earlier in topic they would figuire it out once folks started abusing it. So now if you want to send money to your family you have to pay for it. Does that make all of you happy that were bucking the system? As now nobody can send money to family for free it sounds like from what was said above.

Posted by: edgerrin32 Nov 24 2009, 02:42 PM

hey if you are worried about the fees, tell the person to send a extra buck or 2 to cover the fees!!! if they won't they don't want the item that bad do they.

Posted by: northicehero99 Dec 4 2009, 11:46 PM

Just want to push this topic to the top again, so that everyone is aware, there are to be no "gift" transactions on TCC, per Bob's request above. Going forward if we see it posted we will cancel the deal and warn your account, and if it continues by the same members then either restrictions or suspensions will be issued.

There are reasons why we do not want to allow the use of the Paypal "gift":
1. There are minors on this site who do not understand the concept that sending someone a "gift" is doing just that and they "technically" do not have to send you something.

2. Allowing members to do this opens "the door" for any less than "honest" person to initiate this and "rip" off members. The CZT work hard at trying to make sure that very few deals go bad, but in this type of case the paying member will probably have no recourse via Paypal which is one of the best ways to protect yourself from being "ripped off".

3. If you are hosting a break, take the time to build the fees into the price per group member joining, I am sure most people are not going to walk away from a break over an additional $1, as long as you are providing the kind of break that would attract them and since Paypal is now reversing the charge to the sender it no longer makes sense from either end to use this feature.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation with this request.

Posted by: Mike Lindegarde Dec 9 2009, 10:43 AM

I didn't read the entire post, so perhaps this has come up... the comparison between PayPal and a bank is fundamentally wrong.

Accepting PayPal as payment should be compared to accepting credit cards, not your bank. When you, as a vendor, accept credit cards you have to pay a fee to the credit card companies (there's more involved than that, I'm just keeping it simple).

When you process a credit card online it first has to clear a through a gateway which charges you a fee for processing the transaction. The money from these transactions does not immediately go into your business bank account. The funds from the transaction processed by the gateway get moved to your company bank account in bulk at a set interval.

From a seller's perspective, PayPal works the same way. Keeping your income in the PayPal account and not earning interest on it is your own fault: move the funds to your bank account. You shouldn't be keeping a balance in your PayPal account in the first place. Do you complain because the change in your piggy bank isn't earning interest? No, you go put the money in the bank.

PayPal does not charge the buyer a fee and that's how it should be. Visa doesn't charge me a fee when I buy something at Target.

Comparing PayPal to your bank and saying you shouldn't have to pay fees because PayPal is earning money off of your PayPal balance is a lot like complaining because your spoon won't cut your steak. PayPal should be compared to credit card processing which is also not free and also does not pay you interest.

I don't side with Bob to often on this sort of thing, but in this case abusing the "gift" option is wrong.

Posted by: mjda Dec 9 2009, 12:33 PM

Also, when you use the gift option, as a buyer, you're not covered if something goes south. This might have been brought up before, but I didn't read the entire thread either.

Posted by: northicehero99 Dec 29 2009, 06:33 PM

Moving this topic back up there for our members to see the issue with using "gifts" via paypal, and why we do not allow use of this paypal feature for transactions.

Anyone doing this needs to stop immediately. Thanks.

Posted by: edgerrin32 Dec 29 2009, 06:54 PM

yea i have seen a lot of post lately of people trying to sell and it say XX.xx but only if paypal gift. just man up and pay the fees what is so hard to grasp about this!!

a solution is a short ban if you are trying to do this just a idea. im not trying to make anyone mad or get anyone in trouble but rules are rules!! and a rule on here is not to use the gift in a transaction.

Posted by: avalanche Dec 29 2009, 07:11 PM

going back to the paypal/ebay fees. i like what edgerrin siad about a fair amount per month. one month i got $200 and it charged me $60. they take 12% of each item sold plus the listing fee. and to top it then you got to pay paypal fees. that add up!

Posted by: Gsil84 Dec 29 2009, 07:22 PM

Long time on this post.. Nice to see it still moving. I dont make payments as gifts. Unless I am making them to myself. For the longest time my Paypal account would not let me print shipping of any kind. I called them several times and they never fixed it till about 3 weeks ago. It was that way for about a year.. So I had to send myself money to a different account and print shipping from it.. That was my way of using it as a gift..

I can tell you one thing. On SCF everyone asks for it as a gift. And It has gotten so bad Some people put that in there sigs. Stating that they will not pay as a gift.. And neither do I.. I always throw a couple bucks on top of my prices for fees and shipping. If something sells on Ebay for 5 and 3 Shipping I feel 7 or 8 is not to much to ask.. I think its more the people buying than the people selling.. People always ask me if I will take less as a gift payment.. I always say No.. If they want it bad enough they will pay the price you want. .

Something has happened in the last few months on all the sites Im on.. More people are shipping damaged cards.. Or Shipping very very very slowly and even more are not mailing at all.. We all need to stick together and use the tools provided to us..

I'm glad TCC has taken this stand to protect the members of the site..

Posted by: edgerrin32 Dec 29 2009, 07:52 PM

we are all on the honor system when buying/selling/and trading. if we don't do something then one will. we all need to step up and be fair and be friends and help each other out so we can keep the hobby going. because it is becoming more of business and not a hobby anymore like it should be. and yes we all have bought low and sold high but we still like it as a hobby. so let keep the hobby fair and honest, because if you cheat the system why would you not cheat your friend or trading partner????

Posted by: otter8418 Dec 30 2009, 04:59 PM

people that find a way to cheat the system eventually make it worse on themselves when the company finds out and adjusts accordingly. a sense of entitlement and a fear that paypal is out to get you does not give you the right to cheat paypal and make it harder on those of us who conduct business honestly. sending payment as a gift, when it is not, is lying (not a gift), cheating (breaking the rules), and stealing (the fees that paypal gets for providing that service), and I would like to think that we are all capable of more than that.

Posted by: Gsil84 Feb 12 2010, 12:00 AM

Man I got a Pinned thread.. I feel important.. Good To see its still up here and that people are getting this information..

Posted by: sschind Feb 12 2010, 01:21 PM

I'm trying to avoid a bit of long overdue chores so this will likely get rather long. You have been warned. Proceed at your own risk.

Don't get me started on CC processing fees Mike. You and all your "you have to take my debit card for this $1.25 purchase because I never carry cash anymore" kind Well, I got news for ya. The CC companies may say I have to take your card for a $1.25 purchase and the government may say I have to take your card for a $1.25 purchase but I say I'm not going to take your card for a $1.25 purchase. You want to complain go ahead but in the mean time you had better find something else worth at least $3.75 to add to it or you go home without it.

Seriously though, services generally cost someone money somewhere down the line. Usually it the consumer that ends up paying. I don't think that people would be complaining about the fees if the companies weren't posting what appears to be obscene profits but you have to remember, ebay and Paypal are businesses. They are not non-profit organizations. They have stockholders and are committed to providing them with a return on their investment. Paypal is selling a product. They transfer money for you just like you sell a card to a guy across the country. Is it right that you or I or anyone else should determine how much profit they should make. Should someone step in and say that you can't sell that 1/1 Auto of Adrian Peterson for more than $100.00 because it cuts in on the profits of the person buying it. Of course not. No one wants anyone else dictating what they should be able to sell their products for but everyone seems to think they know what everyone else should be selling their products for. It's all pretty much the same. ( I know there are minor differences, ebay forcing people to use paypal only and the like but there are ways around that as well. Ways that do not violate TOS)

As far as the gift system. It was put in place for people to be able to send money as a legitimate gift without paying for it. It was a gesture of good will on PayPal's part and I am sure they figured it would get abused in some way. I am also quite sure that they knew it was costing them money in the way of lost fees. Some would contend that it was only a matter of time before they realized how much money they were losing and start taking their cut anyway (making the sender pay) and others would contend that it was abuse of the system that made made them change. It was probably a bit of both but the end result is now someone has to pay to send a gift.

The bottom line is if you are sending payment marked as a gift for something that is not a gift you are lying and yes, you are stealing. Many people think it is OK because it's a big corporation. Well, when the big corporation starts charging the legitimate users of their service because it is being abused by others then it stops affecting only the big corporations. It affects the grandmas and grandpas on fixed incomes sending a $10.00 birthday gift to their grandkids. (I'll pause to let you wipe away the tears) It affects the 1st grader who wants to donate 2 weeks allowance to the animal shelter to keep a cute little puppy or kitty from being gassed. (More kleenex... go ahead, I'll wait) It affects the billionaire who wants to save a few hundred bucks by... OK, him we don't care about but think of the puppies and kitties man.

Anyway, IMO it is wrong. I won't do it and I won't ask others to do it (In fact it never crossed my mind as I never knew there was such an option) If you want to do it I guess I'm fine by that. I'm not going to think that much less of you but I am certainly not going to come to your aid when the whole thing blows up in your face and you get ripped off. As long as you know the consequences, you can play by your own rules.

Oh yeah, FYI Visa doesn't give you those frequent flier miles, the retailers you use your credit cards with do so next time you use your debit card to buy that candy bar make sure you thank the store owner for putting you that much closer to your free flight to Vegas or wherever you are planning to go and maybe, just maybe you will understand why his "thank you" seemed just a little bit forced.

You were warned.

Posted by: edgerrin32 Feb 12 2010, 01:30 PM

just adding 1 thing. when you steal from Walmart they raise there prices to make up the loss!! so did you really make out or just lose more in the end????

Posted by: Beavers98 May 7 2010, 02:52 PM

Just ask for more money to cover the fees... Still if it's agreed upon??...Aren't the fees passed onto the person making payment if the gift option is chosen. For example I send 10 gift, but have to pay 10.70 or something for that person to get $10 in thier account.

Posted by: RGBII May 7 2010, 02:56 PM

It is the policy of Trading Card Central
that Paypal payments as "gifts" are not
allowed.

There is no resolution program in
the case of a dispute when one utilizes
this form of payment.

Collect Hard!,
RGBII

Posted by: dodgerblue38501 May 21 2010, 02:11 AM

Here is a link to a TCC Member that is openly asking for Gift Payments:

http://www.tradingcardcentral.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=275925

Posted by: Pejarox7620 May 21 2010, 02:53 AM

I completely agree. The Fees are ridiculous we have to pay fees for selling on ebay and for getting the payment from selling to someone on ebay. I wouldn't be using Paypal at all but ebay requires you to have it to accept payment since they dont let you accept MO anymore. Paypal just nickel and dime you with their fees and i sell all the time on ebay. So my fees in excess of $1000...Paypal protection isn't really what its named either. Their protection plan doesn't work most of the time. I've been scammed so hard trying to use paypal and trying to recover my payment ($1300 for a Group break here) but i couldn't they said oh im sorry we cant do anything he has no more money. What protection is that? I don't know i wouldnt be using paypal if i didn't HAVE TO but im forced to...either way i thought the gift thing was a great way to get around paying fees but i guess we cant do that either..

Posted by: tyrodsports Aug 27 2010, 10:18 PM

I have used Paypal for regular payments on cards purchased outside of Ebay and they have yet to offer me buyers protection. I got burned twice and paypal wouldnt do anything. Am I missing something?

Posted by: sschind Aug 28 2010, 09:25 AM

There is a way to avoid 100% of ebay's fees and Paypals fees. Its 100% legal 100% foolproof. It doesn't violate any TOS and is so simple anyone can do it.

The secret is to not sell on Ebay and do not use paypal.

It couldn't get any easier than that.