Outline · [ Standard ] · Linear+ Terrorism in Tennessee

[Clary209]

Chris, you say---
[quote=cdoyal,Sep 1 2010, 11:00 AM]
Well, actually there is. One group has been violent and one hasn't.

I don't see it that way. I don't think any religion was being attacked--the US, and especially it's financial and political arms (especially the foreign policy part), were the intended target. And remember not all of the 3,000 who died were Americans; if I remember correctly, over 50 separate countries had citizens die in that attack. And not only Christians died-- Muslims died as well--and I would imagine that there were also other religions and those that were not religious and maybe atheists as well. So I see many more than just two groups that suffered, directly and indirectly as well. So, if a Buddhist or Hindu temple were to be planned would we be upset? Yes, the attackers were assumed to be Muslim. They were radical--and every religion can boast of such radicals as members of those religions. should we condemn all of those moderates for the actions of the radicals in any religion? If so, then you can easily lump Christianity in the foremost group of terrorists the world has ever seen! Why should Christians be allowed to usurp all of the feeling of being wronged or claim all of the suffering from that attack???? If so, then why????? Why should not all of the world claim the Twin Towers as hallowed ground and not just one segment of the US society? Plus, our constitutional foundation demands the mosque be allowed to be built--if that right is revoked, then when will it be revoked for your favorite religion? It will be only a matter of time.

You also suggest: It's a poor arguement that a large majority of Americans don't buy into.


We are supposed to be a society built upon laws. Laws should not be determined by the majority or minority opinion. It should be judged as either lawful or not. What your personal opinion is of that law should be of no consequence. Justice is supposed to be blind. Should one be allowed to burn the flag? Absolutely! Not my flag on my property, but your flag on your property. Our laws only work when they are extended to those we detest. If we fall prey to the urge to pick and choose who to extend our laws to, we will then destroy the very foundation we claim to believe in. Then might will truly make right.

[mjda]

Guys, keep in mind that NYC officials have also blocked the rebuilding of the St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church near ground zero as well. This is not a new church, but one that was already there and was destroyed on 9/11. I certainly don't hear any of the media, or those complaining on this board about the anti-mosque folks, saying anything about this one.

[cdoyal]

We are supposed to be a society built upon laws.  Laws should not be determined by the majority or minority opinion.

Of course, what you say is right. But again, that's not the arguement here. It's about whether they SHOULD build it. I've heard some horrible statements that this imam has made regarding the US in the past. I don't give a rat's rear end about mosques being built in the US. But given all the things this particular imam has said, I'm really starting to believe they want it there to show the world what Islam has accomplished. The governor of NY has tried to work with them to find a "more suitable" location and they've said "no".
People are fooling themselves if they truly believe this isn't about the location. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...

On a related note: walk the streets of London and listen to the imams "preaching" on the sidewalk out in front of their mosques. You'll be concerned with that eventually happening here because people are falling all over themselves trying to make sure "their rights aren't being violated". I'm not saying they don't have a right to free speech but it's a serious issue that can't be ignored. These guys are spewing some pretty serious hate and not in insignificant numbers. It's not like a few drunk morons in white sheets burning a cross behind the 7-11 on a Saturday night. No one takes those guys seriously because there are so few of them. These imams are serious dudes with a gazillion followers.

[stlbaseball15]

This doesn't apply to us as we are the "land of the free", but:

Using your last sentence - why do some Muslims in foreign countries paint the entire Christian religion as evil and practice violence against Christians?

That would also be hatred. Religion has a way of breeding exclusiveness and feelings of superiority. Still, people in America have the right to be as backwards as they want.

[stlbaseball15]

This is a ginned up issue invented to polarize people in an election year and it's working. Islamophobia is being acted upon all over the country. We should instead be reeling from embarrassment that there is still a big hole in the ground in NYC 9 freaking years later.

[Clary209]

Actually I would end this statement this way:
This is a ginned up issue invented to polarize people in an election year and it's working. Islamophobia is being acted upon all over the country. We should instead be reeling from embarrassment that.....we are still engaged in two pointless, worthless, hugely expensive (money and lives), and criminal wars.

[jkseb1972]

Actually I would end this statement this way:
This is a ginned up issue invented to polarize people in an election year and it's working. Islamophobia is being acted upon all over the country. We should instead be reeling from embarrassment that.....we are still engaged in two pointless, worthless, hugely expensive (money and lives), and criminal wars.

it's not pointless to those who have a semblance of freedom over there now. something in my mind that is priceless.

[Clary209]

it's not pointless to those who have a semblance of freedom over there now. something in my mind that is priceless.

Hmm....'Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose......'--Janis Joplin I think. Freedom--one of those words that mean nothing---and everything. Pure freedom would be anarchy, wouldn't it? Doubt that is what you mean. So, for you, what is freedom? And do you suppose it would be the same for people of other cultures? Aren't Americans a bit arrogant to suppose we know what everybody in the world wants? And how they want it? And that freedom can be given to other country? Are they freer now that 10 years ago? That depends upon the person you ask. Some have yearned for the days of Saddam--at least they could turn on the living room light. Or flush the toilet. Or turn on the tap. And for me to think that Cheney or Bush or any other neocon was at all interested in freedom for the Iraqi people is beyond belief. They believed and believe in the financial freedom of Bectal, Halibutron, Blackwater, and others, and not a whit for the people of Iraq. So, maybe 5 or 6 may have more freedom now than 10 years ago, but I don't think it is much more than that. But you are correct--the war in Iraq was not pointless--it was criminal.

[cdoyal]

And for me to think that Cheney or Bush or any other neocon was at all interested in freedom for the Iraqi people is beyond belief.  They believed and believe in the financial freedom of Bectal, Halibutron, Blackwater, and others, and not a whit for the people of Iraq.

Oh come on. Do you have any idea how crazy you sound? You really think "neocons" are soul-less? There are other ways to argue against the war without joining the black helicopter/tinfoil hat crowd. It just kills your credibility.

You have to be a pretty sick individual to think that any president - Democrat or Republican - would start a war so companies could profit. No sane man would kill thousands of people for profit.

Hopefully, you'll want to ammend your statement.

[Clary209]

Oh come on. Do you have any idea how crazy you sound? You really think "neocons" are soul-less? There are other ways to argue against the war without joining the black helicopter/tinfoil hat crowd. It just kills your credibility.

You have to be a pretty sick individual to think that any president - Democrat or Republican - would start a war so companies could profit. No sane man would kill thousands of people for profit.

Hopefully, you'll want to ammend your statement.

Nope, don't want to amend my comments. Can you give me any other reason we went to war in Iraq? Other presidents have started wars for other an "noble" reasons. Polk fabricated the Mexican War to ensure he could expand the nation, from sea to shining sea. Eisenhower warned us that we should be wary of the industrial-military complex. We ignored that advice and we are reaping the benefits of that right now. Haliburton and BP have a hell of a lot more to do with foreign policy than we, the American people do.

[edgerrin32]

We had no reason to go to Iraq! We had no reason to really go to Afghanistan! But it all depends on what you want to believe! If they were that big of a problem we would have dropped the big one on them and called it a day, the middle east would have been known as the middle of nowhere! And is it odd there was never any "weapons of mass destruction" found?? It was a pointless war and I really feel bad for the people and there family's that lost there lives over there! But these are my thoughts.

[jkseb1972]

Nope, don't want to amend my comments.  Can you give me any other reason we went to war in Iraq?  Other presidents have started wars for other an "noble" reasons.  Polk fabricated the Mexican War to ensure he could expand the nation, from sea to shining sea.  Eisenhower warned us that we should be wary of the industrial-military complex.  We ignored that advice and we are reaping the benefits of that right now.  Haliburton and BP have a hell of a lot more to do with foreign policy than we, the American people do.

i suppose we aided south vietnam for their rice huh? or western europe for thie rwooden shoes and fine cheeses? the USA has always been like a big brother in this world. we have ALWAYS had troops abroad and will continue to aid our allies and those who can't help theirselves.

[Clary209]

i suppose we aided south vietnam for their rice huh? or western europe for thie rwooden shoes and fine cheeses? the USA has always been like a  big brother in this world. we have ALWAYS had troops abroad and will continue to aid our allies and those who can't help theirselves.

Big Brother??!! Yeah, like in Orwell's "1984". We have not always had troops abroad. And not all wars are created equally. According to you why did we aid South Vietnam? To keep those domino's from falling? Why did we engage in the Spanish American War? How about the Indian Wars? Ever hear of the Trail of Tears? Speaking of keeping troops--why do we still have them in South Korea, Germany and Japan? Why do we need them in over 150 different nations? If we go to the aid of those who can't help themselves why not to Rwanda? Or Sudan? or........well, there are always places in the world that are in trouble. Do you really see us as the Cop of the world? Who appointed us to that spot?????

[cdoyal]

Nope, don't want to amend my comments.  Can you give me any other reason we went to war in Iraq? 

Really don't want to rehash the whole war thing for the gazillionth time. Been there, done that. You either believe the UN violation/WMD intellegence or you don't.

[RGBII]

I'm stayin' outta this . . .
I'm stayin' outta this . . .
I'm stayin' outta this . . .
I'm stayin' outta this . . .

I swear, I'm stayin' outta this . . .

Collect Hard!,
RGBI

[cdoyal]

I'm stayin' outta this . . .
I'm stayin' outta this . . .
I'm stayin' outta this . . .
I'm stayin' outta this . . .

I swear, I'm stayin' outta this . . .

Collect Hard!,
RGBI

I said the same thing but here I am.
Stupid, stupid, stupid...

[Clary209]

Really don't want to rehash the whole war thing for the gazillionth time. Been there, done that. You either believe the UN violation/WMD intellegence or you don't.

There wasn't any credible intelligence. It was all cooked up. Just ask Gen. Powell.
And no, I don't think any neocon has a soul.

[cdoyal]

There wasn't any credible intelligence.  It was all cooked up.  Just ask Gen. Powell.
And no, I don't think any neocon has a soul.

Well, there you go.

[RGBII]

Mr. Doyal,

Once a political junkie . . .

always a political junkie.

That has been my experience, in any
event. I actually led a boycott of my
High School Library when I was seventeen.

They wouldn't allow Kurt Vonnegut novels
on the shelves. I went ballistic and got a
lot of help, signatures and a few teachers
involved. I eventually was invited to a
City Council meeting to air our grievances.

We won, now Northside High School Library
stocks Slaughterhouse 5, Cat's Cradle and
The Sirens of Titan.

Come to find out, the "Commission" on
books allowed on the school shelves in the
County was actually made up of 4
unelected wives of Baptist preachers. That
practice is no longer in use.

Sorry about the speil, I get carried
away . . .

Point is, I love this stuff and fussin' with
wrong-minded, right wingers makes my
day .

Let's continue the fussin' and Mr. Doyal
continue to fire my responses.

Collect Hard!,
RGBII

[mjda]

We won, now Northside High School Library
stocks Slaughterhouse 5, Cat's Cradle and
The Sirens of Titan.

Wow! I graduated from Northside ISD too. Of course, I'm going to guess it wasn't the same Northside.