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> Zimmerman Case

redwing40
post Jul 16 2013, 09:29 AM
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Two wrongs dont make right, so let's start riots and beat up people gang up on a news reporter and to tweet I'm going to shoot me a white kid at random.
Keep the peace, and spread the word that everyone is equal in rights



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aceecards
post Jul 16 2013, 10:10 AM
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It is simply a case of two men failing to show restraint.

Zimmerman failed to yield when 911 told him to

Martin failed to yield when he chose violence over words and pounded on Zimmerman.

and here is where the world turns. A young man lost his life in a meaningless confrontation that could have simply been avoided by having peaceful discourse. Why didnt zimmerman just offer a ride home? Was he accusatory/confrontational? Did martin have something to hide? Did he resort to violence unnecesarily?

Think before you act, talk things thru in your head to get to a scenario that DOES NOT involve violence. if every end result involves violence, then WE LOSE!

Poop happens every day, accidents, road rage, people getting hurt without any intention of doing so!

God speed Mr Martin!

To the rest of soceity WAKE UP!



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Ilovetheheat
post Jul 16 2013, 11:09 AM
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Oh, boy.... Here goes the can of worms.....

TCC I'm not a violent person but if I'm walking home in MY neighborhood and its a bit dark outside... And I see someone in a car following me.... And they get out of their car.... And I notice its a grown man and I'm still in high school.... And he's bigger than me...

I would be scared! I would be wondering why the heck is this guy following me!

What happens when you corner the cutest, softest cat in a corner? That cat will attack!

.....

Depending on who you believe Zimmerman confronted Trayvon or Trayvon confronted him... Either way had I been Trayvon I'd be scared and I wold have tried to take Zimmermans head off.

......

There are too many holes in this case. Trayvon did not see or reach for a gun! Not physically possible based on Zimmermans statements.

Lets face it... The states case was all circumstantial as most murder cases are and they did a poor job. The case took place in a conservative town with and all white woman jury. It is what it is!

.................
The defense acknowledged Zimmerman profiled Trayvon... How was he standing his ground when he got out of the car? If you believe he got out of his car to look for a street sign you are clearly letting your conditioned sub conscious cloud rational thinking. Play the devils advocate.... Who gets out of their car to look for a street sign in THEIR own neighborhood?

Really?
.........


This is not about two men showing restraint Steve! This is about racial profiling! If Trayvon was Asian would he have been followed? Be honest with yourself!
..............

Trayvon had a right to defend himself! What should he have done? Show Zimmeran an ID? Tell his address? Approach the car?

What do I teach my kids?
-That if a white person is following you show them your ID?
-Stop and approach them?
-Run?
-Explain what you're doing?

Really?
Is that what people of color have to teach their kids?

Again, even if Trayvon did beat up Zimmerman.... Was he not in the right? Zimmerman was following this boy! That sums up this entire case!
................

But @ the OP......

Yeah, sad about the violence and crazy tweets... Always crazy nuts on both sides. I have no problem with the protesting though.

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northicehero99
post Jul 16 2013, 11:43 AM
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Jeremy while I agree with some of your points, I also have to note that the jury was 5 white, one other, but still majority was not Trayvon's peers and why the state did not push for that who knows? Would the outcome have been different, possibly or maybe it would have been a hung jury?

Secondly, I don't care what the color of your skin is, every time I see someone walking with a hoodie covering their head I assume the worst, especially at night, this was Florida where it is hot and there was no mention of rain, so I don't understand the need for "hiding" or acting suspicious by wearing the hoodie up.

Next, I don't know all the streets in my neighborhood and I have been there 20 years, I never walk it, usually just drive down a few main streets to get to the main road to get where I am going, so I could see someone not knowing a street name, however I don't suspect that was the real reason he got out of the car as you can usually see it through the window if you are close enough.

However saying all that, if I were following someone suspicious I would have remained in my car and notified police and kept watch at a distance. I agree, if I was the one being followed I would probably have reacted like Trayvon or I would have ran like hell to somewhere safe if possible.

This was a travesty for all involved, but what is worse is that this story overshadows the daily killings going on in neighborhoods all over this country that don't get but 10 seconds of airplay. When it happens by different races it is headline news, but when it happens daily it is a 5 second blurb and move onto the next story. Killing is killing no matter who commits the crime and it needs to stop. We need to teach our kids that life is more precious that any gold, silver, gems and to respect each other no matter race, religion, sex, etc.



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Ilovetheheat
post Jul 16 2013, 12:06 PM
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QUOTE(northicehero99 @ Jul 16 2013, 12:43 PM)
I also have to note that the jury was 5 white, one other, but still majority was not Trayvon's peers and why the state did not push for that who knows?  Would the outcome have been different, possibly or maybe it would have been a hung jury?
Agree. It is what it is.

Secondly, I don't care what the color of your skin is, every time I see someone walking with a hoodie covering their head I assume the worst, especially at night, this was Florida where it is hot and there was no mention of rain, so I don't understand the need for "hiding" or acting suspicious by wearing the hoodie up. 
Correction, it was raining. And you have the right to deem someone suspicious wearing a hoodie, I personally may profile in my own way based on my conditioning but hoodies don't fall in that category for me. I doubt most people will find these people suspicious.
user posted image user posted image


Next, I don't know all the streets in my neighborhood and I have been there 20 years, I never walk it, usually just drive down a few main streets to get to the main road to get where I am going, so I could see someone not knowing a street name, however I don't suspect that was the real reason he got out of the car as you can usually see it through the window if you are close enough.
Fair enough, glad you agree his excuse was bogus.

However saying all that, if I were following someone suspicious I would have remained in my car and notified police and kept watch at a distance.  I agree, if I was the one being followed I would probably have reacted like Trayvon or I would have ran like hell to somewhere safe if possible. 
My point exactly.

This was a travesty for all involved, but what is worse is that this story overshadows the daily killings going on in neighborhoods all over this country that don't get but 10 seconds of airplay.  When it happens by different races it is headline news, but when it happens daily it is a 5 second blurb and move onto the next story.  Killing is killing no matter who commits the crime and it needs to stop.  We need to teach our kids that life is more precious that any gold, silver, gems and to respect each other no matter race, religion, sex, etc.
I couldn't agree more!!!!!!!!!!! I'm an advocate for education but how realistic is that for most urban youth with the ever increasing cost of college and the recent college loan interest hikes? sad.gif

I also think kids are somewhat desensitized to killing/violence because of the constant visuals of it in video games and movies. I admit I love action and wars movies. Killing a few zombies on a video game is fun now and then too! But lets be honest.... Could this be having a sub conscious effect on our kids? Could this be desensitizing them? So when it happens in real life, its dismissed quickly?

*



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redwing40
post Jul 16 2013, 12:11 PM
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Really? I was a white kid growing up in a black community, I guess it was ok when I got chased down after school and beat up and ok when my sisters boyfriend got beat up and she got raped, brother shot all because we were white, should that count as the same thing, the storys that go unheard, so you can't call that!
What should I tell my kids? Tell me, as I home school both my kids cause of black Kids bullied them so much, you know what never mind .....who's gonna listen



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Ilovetheheat
post Jul 16 2013, 12:22 PM
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QUOTE(redwing40 @ Jul 16 2013, 01:11 PM)
Really? I was a white kid growing up in a black community, I guess it was ok when I got chased down after school and beat up and ok when my sisters boyfriend got beat up and she got raped, brother shot all because we were white, should that count as the same thing, the storys that go unheard, so you can't call that!
  What should I tell my kids? Tell me, as I home school both my kids cause of black Kids bullied them so much, you know what never mind .....who's gonna listen
*



REALLY? What are you saying?

While I sympathize with your experiences and can relate to some of them that's comparing apples to oranges. I dont understand what you just said and how it correlates to the Trayvon Martin case. One has NOTHING to do with the other. And I have first hand experience with some of your past experiences, so I'm not trying dismiss what you said. I just do not get the relation.

If my kids were being bullied I'd put them in self defense classes. I wouldn't shelter them from it. Then they grow up thinking all kids of the race who bullied them are the same! That's painting with a broad brush my friend. Ever heard the saying all white people aren't racists and all black people aren't dumb?

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Ilovetheheat
post Jul 16 2013, 12:57 PM
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Alot of people are saying that race played no part in this incident. Just for a minute try to remove yourself from your current state of awareness and look at it from the other side. As the below aurthor stated in an article in the NYT the frustration for people of color is the fact that law and color cannot be cleanly separated. Like the professor I do not believe Zimmerman is a racist!!! But his actions were clearly defined by race. Either conscious or subconscious.


"Imagine that a militant black man, with a history of race-based suspicion and a loaded gun, followed an unarmed white teenager around his neighborhood. The young man is scared, and runs through the streets trying to get away. Unable to elude his black stalker and, perhaps, feeling cornered, he finally holds his ground — only to be shot at point-blank range after a confrontation. Would we throw up our hands, unable to conclude what really happened? Would we struggle to find a reasonable doubt about whether the shooter acted in self-defense?"
............
This is about more than one case. Our reasons for presuming, profiling and acting are always deeply racialized, and the Zimmerman trial, in ignoring that, left those reasons unexplored and unrefuted.
- Ekow N. Yankah

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aceecards
post Jul 16 2013, 01:12 PM
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Look,

before anything more gets said.

Forget race. Playing the race card doesnt fly with me .

If you look suspicious , i wont notice the color at all!

if you dont look suspicious, i wont even bother, unless you are in distress, then I might intervene by offering help!

Everyone wants to play up the race issue.

Lets not forget Mr. Zimmerman felt sworn to uphold his position as a "security guard" for his neighborhood.

For the rest read my statement above!

Lets also not forget that people make bad philosophical choices in their lives, whether mr martin portrayed a thug or was a thug, he was perceived as being so. And this was not the first time. Partially his parents to blame for that as they could have talked down his participation in that philosophy/ personality knowing what that choice could lead too, whether it be run in with the law or participating in gangs, it wasnt going to have a happy ending.

Again, a little think thru wouldve gone a long way for both these men. Im sure mr Zimmerman is not going to have any picnic of a life since that night!

It isnt all about race, always, jeremy, with all people. If this had been role reversed, would you have justified Mr martin shooting mr Zimmerman? Would that been ok with you? Would you even have anything to say about it? Would your opinions have been reversed?

I have to ask because i work and live with folks from 100's of countries from all walks of life, from all religions, creeds and race, high profile cases like this one or mr Simpson a few years back always seem to boil down to one walk fo life blaming another and the other saying justice was done.

I want to know WHY?

It was really about two humans in a face to face confrontation that went wrong. it wasnt about the jewish folks vs the Muslin or the hispanics vs the blacks? race , creed, religion , sex orientation WERE NOT INVOLVED whatsoever. Just two humans having a bad day!

If all of us humans dont learn to forget about nationality, race, creed, religion, sex orientation, then we will all end up killing each other over a philosophical differences that mean absolutely NOTHING! why cant wee just value each other for what we are, living breathing human beings sharing a speck of dust in a wide wide universe!

So stop with the racial crap. In my opinion , Race had nothing to do with this, cause I guarantee if Mr Martin had been any race or creed and mr Zimmerman thought he was suspicious, he would have done the same thing!




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redwing40
post Jul 16 2013, 01:14 PM
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I guess being white don't count and I teach my Kids respect towards any race, so teach my kids self defense so what, my kid beats them up and then he's a racist, guess you dont really see my point, it can't be a one way street, then every time my family gets messed with I will bring out my race card but I can't, wherever is my rights! There's people and there are thugs and punks and parents that don't bring there kids up right and not to hate, I'm not racist in any shape or form, but playing the race card every time is getting old and all it does is starts a mess with all races, I'm moving to farm land and let everyone else kill each other, gees!



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Ilovetheheat
post Jul 16 2013, 01:23 PM
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QUOTE(aceecards @ Jul 16 2013, 02:12 PM)
Look,

before anything more gets said.

Forget race. Playing the race card doesnt fly with me .

If you look suspicious , i wont notice the color at all!

if you dont look suspicious, i wont even bother, unless you are in distress, then I might intervene by offering help!

Everyone wants to play up the race issue.

Lets not forget Mr. Zimmerman felt sworn to uphold his position as a "security guard" for his neighborhood.
If you belong to any neighborhood watch or have a concealed weapon license you will know that "Confrontation" is not one of their teachings!


For the rest read my statement above!

Lets also not forget that people make bad philosophical choices in their lives, whether mr martin portrayed a thug or was a thug, he was perceived as being so. And this was not the first time. Partially his parents to blame for that as they could have talked down his participation in that philosophy/ personality knowing what that choice could lead too, whether it be run in with the law or participating in gangs, it wasnt going to have a happy ending.
Walking down a street while its raining and wearing a hoodie is considered being a thug? REALLY? Blaming his parents for wearing a hoodie while its raining? REALLY? People of color have to teach their son's not to wear hoodies?

Again, a little think thru wouldve gone a long way for both these men. Im sure mr Zimmerman is not going to have any picnic of a life since that night!

It isnt all about race, always, jeremy, with all people. If this had been role reversed, would you have justified Mr martin shooting mr Zimmerman? Would that been ok with you? Would you even have anything to say about it? Would your opinions have been reversed?
Agree, race doe not always play a role in things. But there was a text book example of racial profiling! Denying THAT is simply naive.

I have to ask because i work and live with folks from 100's of countries from all walks of life, from all religions, creeds and race, high profile cases like this one or mr Simpson a few years back always seem to boil down to one walk fo life blaming another and the other saying justice was done.

I want to know WHY?
Why? Because race does a play a role in many of society's outcry's. Here's a prime example..... Trayvon as you say was preceived as a thug simply because he was walking home in the rain wearing a hoodie.

It was really about two humans in a face to face confrontation that went wrong. it wasnt about the jewish folks vs the Muslin or the hispanics vs the blacks? race , creed, religion , sex orientation WERE NOT INVOLVED whatsoever. Just two humans having a bad day!
Agree it wasnt about a black kid verses a Hispanic man... I agree with that! BUT... racial profiling does play a role in why this has escalated to the point it has!

If all of us humans dont learn to forget about nationality, race, creed, religion, sex orientation, then we will all end up killing each other over a philosophical differences that mean absolutely NOTHING! why cant wee just value each other for what we are, living breathing human beings sharing a speck of dust in a wide wide universe!
I agree.... But honestly will never happen. We can't undo hundreds of years of conditioning overnight.

So stop with the racial crap. In my opinion , Race had nothing to do with this, cause I guarantee if Mr Martin had been any race or creed and mr Zimmerman thought he was suspicious, he would have done the same thing!
Your opinion Steve! I respect but disagree! Why?? Simply because I do not believe Zimmerman would had followed an Asian or white kid!
*


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Ilovetheheat
post Jul 16 2013, 01:26 PM
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QUOTE(redwing40 @ Jul 16 2013, 02:14 PM)
I guess being white don't count and I teach my Kids respect towards any race, so teach my kids self defense so what, my kid beats them up and then he's a racist, guess you dont really see my point, it can't be a one way street, then every time my family gets messed with I will bring out my race card but I can't, wherever is my rights! There's people and there are thugs and punks and parents that don't bring there kids up right and not to hate, I'm not racist in any shape or form, but playing the race card every time is getting old and all it does is starts a mess with all races, I'm moving to farm land and let everyone else kill each other, gees!
*



I'm not sure if this is in rebuttal to my post but I'll reply anyway... I really dont understand what you're trying to say.

Concerning your last sentence and the so called "Playing of the race card"... I can agree race does get thrown in when its unwarranted but in my opinion race did play a huge part why this kid is dead! Even the defense Zimmerman profiled! I guess we can agree to disagree on that!

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redwing40
post Jul 16 2013, 01:57 PM
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Jeremy, peace man, just wish this world would show more love towards each other , hope thats something we can both agree on! smile.gif just hope everyone calms down and let the civil courts do there job now!



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Ilovetheheat
post Jul 16 2013, 02:05 PM
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QUOTE(redwing40 @ Jul 16 2013, 02:57 PM)
Jeremy, peace man, just wish this world would show more love towards each other , hope thats something we can both agree on! smile.gif just hope everyone calms down and let the civil courts do there job now!
*



I agree brother! smile.gif

And btw I doubt a civil case is brought against Zimmerman. The case wouldn't be strong and the feds don't like losing.

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aceecards
post Jul 16 2013, 03:14 PM
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jeremy.

if you and i take point on this i believe we can change the world.

but you know mr martin had developed some bad habits!


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Ilovetheheat
post Jul 16 2013, 03:43 PM
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QUOTE(aceecards @ Jul 16 2013, 04:14 PM)
jeremy.

if you and i take point on this i believe we can change the world.

but you know mr martin had developed some bad habits!
*



Steve,

For the sake of the argument lets assume Trayvon was the worst kid in his school. Lets assume he was the epitome of what you dont want your child to be... For arguments sake lets say all of that is true.. That still has NO BEARING on the Zimmerman case! Zimmerman still racially profiled this kid and followed him.

I can't claim Trayvon was some saint or sinless, but anything he ever did in the past or would do in the future has nothing to do with what happened! He was walking home 7:30 in the evening and wearing a hoodie over his head because it was raining. His past, or then personality had absolutely nothing to do with what happened.

Brother, I dont think Zimmerman is racist. But one can't deny he racially profiled this black kid. Even his defense attorneys admitted he profiled Trayvon. Based on my upbringing, conditioning and experiences that's sadly the norm. Not sure how we can change hundreds of years of conditioning but we could start by revisiting the state laws that define murder, manslaughter and self defense. I'm not sure how Zimmerman had the right to defend himself but Trayvon didn't?

I don't know if we can change the world but we can start with ourselves. God knows I'm a work in progress!

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aceecards
post Jul 16 2013, 05:02 PM
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Ill stand with you!


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northicehero99
post Jul 16 2013, 05:48 PM
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Life experiences often influence our perceptions relative to race. Maybe Zimmerman had a negative racial experience? I have and I am sure many others have as well. Those types of experiences factor in when other things occur.

Relative to perceptions, turn on the news and you will often see criminals sporting hoodies as they are being carted away to jail and that paints a negative perception no matter what the race wearing the hoodie.

I think both sides failed in this case. I always remind myself nothing is worth getting killed over, whether it is someone cutting you off in traffic or whatever it may be. Neither party in this case thought their actions through.



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aceecards
post Jul 16 2013, 07:16 PM
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I want to pose an example to you

I want to see if you think this is racial profiling.

There is a break in attempt at a neighbors house.

You call 911 to report it

What is the first thing they ask for after the address.

A description

Male/female
race
height
clothes

so if I say its a African American male wearing a gray hoodie, am I racial profiling or answering a question?

If I say I think it was a male or he might have been Hispanic , is that racial profiling?

See my gut tells me that even making an accurate description is considered racial profiling by whatever race you are describing.

Get that drift, cause a lot of people don't.




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Ilovetheheat
post Jul 16 2013, 08:01 PM
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QUOTE(aceecards @ Jul 16 2013, 08:16 PM)
I want to pose an example to you

I want to see if you think this is racial profiling.

There is a break in attempt at a neighbors house.

You call 911 to report it

What is the first thing they ask for after the address.

A description

Male/female
race
height
clothes

so if I say its a African American male wearing a gray hoodie, am I racial profiling or answering a question?

If I say I think it was a male or he might have been Hispanic , is that racial profiling?

See my gut tells me that even making an accurate description is considered racial profiling by whatever race you are describing.

Get that drift, cause a lot of people don't.
*



NO, that is not racial profiling!

BUT that is not what Zimmerman did... You're comparing apples to oranges.

Zimmerman followed this boy in his car solely because of his color. THAT is racial profiling!

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